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to grow and starve the things that gotta

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go and with that said let's get on with

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in the 1930s president franklin delano

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roosevelt addressed the nation through a

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series of radio broadcasts known as the

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fireside chats his aim was to reassure

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the common man that our society would

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recover from its troubled times well

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we're far from 1930 and i deal with a

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different kind of fire for a new era of

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worldly frustration we offer a fresh

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conversation i'm greg carlwood and these

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are the higher side chats

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well this is the way higher side

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chatters doing what we do from sunny san

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diego i'm greg carlwood and with nearly

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all the cascading problems facing the

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world when you dig deeper into each one

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you can usually find in a

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multi-generational billionaire family of

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the propped up parasite class is

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responsible or at least has found a way

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to seize the opportunity to suck up some

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profits out of the massive fallout of

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our misfortunes while the rest of us pay

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the cost

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education media healthcare technology

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for-profit prisons food oil energy and

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of course medicine all have their

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designated cabals and corporations

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carving out a piece of the pie and today

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we're going to talk about the sackler

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family purdue pharma the opioid crisis

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and how we see several underlying

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infrastructural mechanisms actually

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serving the interests of the nefarious

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few while the victims and society at

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large are left holding the bag

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and breaking it all down today is our

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guest ryan hampton who knows this

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subject as well as anyone from a

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personal and professional perspective

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ryan has seen the struggle firsthand as

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the prescription pain medication given

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to him after a hiking injury severely

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derailed his life to the point of

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homelessness but he has risen up to be

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one of the most powerful voices and

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advocates in the recovery movement a

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commendable mission he is thoroughly

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dedicated to

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he's also the author of 2018's american

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fix inside the opioid addiction crisis

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and how to end it

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as well as the recently released

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unsettled how the purdue pharma

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bankruptcy failed the victims of the

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american overdose crisis which was

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written in real time as he served as

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co-chair of the official unsecured

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creditors committee that acted as a

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watchdog during the court proceedings as

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purdue pharma filed for bankruptcy to

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protect itself from over 2 600 lawsuits

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stemming from its role in fueling the

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u.s overdose crisis

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it's a topic well worth our time so

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let's get into it the addiction recovery

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advocate opioid crisis commentator and

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thorn in the sackler's side ryan welcome

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to the higher side

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greg thanks for having me

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really excited to be here to be able to

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talk about this topic and thank you you

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know for giving it air time because it

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certainly isn't getting enough so i

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appreciate you and all your listeners

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uh kind of you to say and we are lucky

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to have you here i appreciate your

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dedication to this issue that everyone

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seems to know about but it just seems to

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keep snowballing so many people know of

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at least a few folks who have fallen

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into this trap three or four guys i went

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to high school with are no longer with

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us and i'm sure a lot of people out

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there can say something similar to that

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i really enjoyed both your books so much

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to talk about but if we were to start

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with an overview of the opioid crisis

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and the size and scope of how it's

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affected the country and the world at

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large

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what are the statistics and data that

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you could give us to get the ball

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rolling

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yeah absolutely that's a great question

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so you know the opioid overdose crisis

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today looks very different from what it

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looked like just a few years ago when i

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found recovery you know i got into

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recovery in 2015 and i can remember

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hearing the numbers you know we were we

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were talking somewhere in the range of

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47 000 49 000

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deaths to overdose and at that time in

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2015

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they were talking about it being

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historic highs right like this being a

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massive crisis that needed to be dealt

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with

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just last week actually the federal

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government updated their numbers just

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specific to drug overdose and it is now

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over a hundred and one thousand

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americans who have lost their lives to a

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preventable drug overdose and i say

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preventable because there's so much that

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the government could be doing and that

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local governments could be doing that

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would prevent these overdoses but

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they're not doing now to give you just

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the size and scope

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we believe i believe folks in my

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community believe

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that that hundred and one thousand

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number is actually

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grossly under reported

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i have friends who died of overdose but

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on their death certificates it shows

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not overdoses the primary cause of death

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but something else so it's not really

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necessarily reported as an overdose so

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we believe that data is tragically under

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reported and it is probably much more it

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also doesn't include alcohol poisoning

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or alcohol overdose if you were to

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include those numbers you'd probably be

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looking at closer to 375 400 000

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americans but just to keep it simple

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we're talking about 101 000

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mostly now coming from illicit fentanyl

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overdoses that are involved in these

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numbers but right now in the united

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states there's actually two federally

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declared public health crises one being

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covid the other one being drug overdose

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right

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if you look at the reported numbers

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right just what the government gives us

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right in terms of numbers you're looking

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somewhere around seven to eight hundred

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thousand cova deaths maybe a little bit

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more based on their data based on their

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data 101 000 overdose numbers so you're

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looking for about every seven to eight

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reported federal government data cova

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deaths you're looking at one drug

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overdose death yet federal spending on

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addressing the overdose crisis in this

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country

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is about 800 times less

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than what it is with covet like we get

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the sideline left and right

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it has a tremendous impact on our

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communities it has somewhere near a two

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and a half trillion dollar impact on the

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economy in terms of lost productivity

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wages health care costs it has a huge

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impact on our criminal justice system on

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our education system

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even if you identify as someone who

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doesn't know someone who struggles with

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addiction or you don't know someone

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who's died of an overdose i can

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guarantee you one way or another you are

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impacted either through your insurance

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rates the services your community is

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providing to you your taxes it impacts

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all of us yet we are seen as kind of

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this red-headed stepchild when it comes

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to providing services and i still

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believe that has a lot to do with

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generational and systemic stigma against

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people

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recovery and if the government doesn't

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get their act together if local

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communities don't get their act together

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to start addressing drug overdose like

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the national crisis that it is that

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number is going to continue to just

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skyrocket

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yes that is a great overview and good

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points too there are

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a lot of ways to move numbers the way

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you want them to go and data isn't

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always as neutral as we're told it is in

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really any case

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and not to talk too much about covet but

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it is also interesting that the very

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companies were told to trust to get us

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out of that mess are some of the same

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companies complicit in the opioid crisis

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right

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absolutely it's frustrating i mean it's

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absolutely frustrating

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i'll just pivot to this i mean

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we also have seen situations and even in

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purdue pharma i write about it in

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unsettled they

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unleashed oxycontin to an unsuspecting

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market

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they were in cohorts with the fda to get

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it approved

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they have pled guilty twice

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in federal court to crimes as a company

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yet they also were in development for an

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addiction treatment drug right

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they were just approved for a naloxone

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drug which is the anti-overdose

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anecdote just a couple of months ago

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right so it's like

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add to the problem and then create the

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cure you know so i mean we we've seen

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this happen time and again with

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pharmaceutical manufacturing

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distributing companies pfizer

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right now making the vaccine

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they have really dropped the ball in

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terms of production for naloxone and we

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have communities

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that are dying because they can't get

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that anti-overdose response measure

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because of all of the problems and the

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pipeline problems and production

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problems because they're so focused on

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the vaccine and it makes us really angry

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because i think you can walk and chew

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gum at the same time especially when

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you're a multi-billion dollar company

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00:10:45,269 --> 00:10:42,399
like some of these pharmaceutical

281
00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:48,630
and i learned from your book that pfizer

282
00:10:52,710 --> 00:10:50,640
is largely a household name today

283
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:52,720
because of the deceptive marketing

284
00:10:59,110 --> 00:10:55,760
tactics of arthur sackler that's right

285
00:11:01,750 --> 00:10:59,120
and johnson johnson is the company who

286
00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:01,760
synthesized or introduced fentanyl and

287
00:11:05,829 --> 00:11:03,839
you told me they actually have a hand in

288
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:05,839
controlling some poppy fields in

289
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,000
afghanistan yep so

290
00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:10,800
yeah a dirty world yeah arthur sackler

291
00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:12,800
right who's like the patriarch of the

292
00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:14,640
sackler family

293
00:11:20,550 --> 00:11:17,839
got his first gig really big gig with

294
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:20,560
pfizer around marketing right

295
00:11:24,069 --> 00:11:22,560
and i write about it in unsettled at

296
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:24,079
length but

297
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:26,640
arthur sackler figured out a way to turn

298
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:29,519
medicine into marketing he figured out

299
00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:31,519
how to market medicine

300
00:11:36,069 --> 00:11:34,000
the same way that we market mcdonald's

301
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:36,079
coca-cola you know he can kind of be

302
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:39,200
known as like the don draper of pills

303
00:11:46,389 --> 00:11:41,760
if you want to draw that type of analogy

304
00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:46,399
but pfizer was his first major client

305
00:11:50,629 --> 00:11:48,320
yeah i had that quote from your book the

306
00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:50,639
don draper of pills very good

307
00:11:55,190 --> 00:11:53,360
he apparently to quote the book he built

308
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:55,200
his toxic empire through the magic of

309
00:11:59,190 --> 00:11:57,519
advertising through the magic of

310
00:12:00,949 --> 00:11:59,200
repeating the name of the drug and a

311
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:00,959
claim about the drug and a lie about the

312
00:12:05,190 --> 00:12:03,360
drug over and over his brothers did it

313
00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:05,200
too and their kids did it and the

314
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:07,839
company those kids owned purdue pharma

315
00:12:12,790 --> 00:12:10,399
built the world's most wildly ambitious

316
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:12,800
marketing machine and salesforce to push

317
00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:15,200
a single pill oxycontin

318
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:17,279
yeah and i mean greg like one of the

319
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:19,279
more frustrating things too is even

320
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:22,720
today right in 2022

321
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:24,639
you know there's certain things that

322
00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:26,560
federal government regulators could do

323
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:28,560
to prevent this and something that i

324
00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:30,079
have pushed for

325
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:32,000
and many advocates in the drug policy

326
00:12:37,509 --> 00:12:34,399
community have pushed for and even pain

327
00:12:40,550 --> 00:12:37,519
advocates who rely on oxycontin and

328
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:40,560
other opioids for massive chronic pain

329
00:12:46,389 --> 00:12:43,600
issues is a prohibition on marketing of

330
00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:46,399
these harmful substances right like what

331
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:48,880
we're pushing for isn't to abolish

332
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:51,440
opioids that's not the solution i mean

333
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:52,959
there's people who rely on these

334
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:56,480
medications for extraordinary pain

335
00:13:03,030 --> 00:12:59,519
the problem was the weaponization of the

336
00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:03,040
american medicine cabinet with oxycontin

337
00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:05,120
right the problem was the marketing and

338
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:07,519
the flooding of these medications and

339
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:10,399
pills into these communities with lies

340
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:11,839
right so

341
00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:14,560
we need to figure out how we can have

342
00:13:20,629 --> 00:13:17,040
some sort of prohibition on marketing

343
00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:20,639
that has been a very very tough job

344
00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:22,800
with congress right in the fda and you

345
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:25,040
can only imagine why because of the

346
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:26,959
massive amount of political influence

347
00:13:31,509 --> 00:13:29,680
that these companies have on you know

348
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:31,519
the federal government state governments

349
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:34,800
even local governments it should really

350
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:37,519
piss anybody off who looks under the

351
00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:38,399
hood

352
00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:42,480
for how this system works i had no idea

353
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:44,880
what i was getting into when i signed up

354
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:46,480
to be co-chair of that committee and was

355
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:49,920
appointed by the doj what i saw

356
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:52,800
was nothing other than a sham like a

357
00:13:55,910 --> 00:13:55,040
process of a sham

358
00:13:58,629 --> 00:13:55,920
from

359
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:58,639
how we got into this mess to how it was

360
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,720
dealt with in bankruptcy court the

361
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:02,880
system was stacked against normal

362
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:09,910
that is a common theme around here

363
00:14:13,509 --> 00:14:11,519
whatever the subject we are talking

364
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:13,519
about is and

365
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:15,600
when it comes to the marketing what are

366
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:17,600
some of the biggest lies in that

367
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:19,680
marketing that it's non-addictive and

368
00:14:22,710 --> 00:14:21,440
safe and effective i would assume but

369
00:14:24,310 --> 00:14:22,720
maybe there are some others that aren't

370
00:14:26,870 --> 00:14:24,320
quite as obvious

371
00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:26,880
sure so like let's start really quick

372
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:27,760
with

373
00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:31,279
going back into the 90s right late 90s

374
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:32,160
when

375
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:35,600
the fda gave the drug approval new drug

376
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:36,639
approval

377
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:38,880
known as an nda to

378
00:14:43,829 --> 00:14:41,279
purdue pharma

379
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:43,839
the drug was approved by a

380
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:46,320
nda officer that worked for the fda

381
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:49,839
called curtis wright dr curtis wright

382
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:54,399
dr wright actually invited purdue pharma

383
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:56,959
to a hotel

384
00:15:02,150 --> 00:14:59,600
in rockville maryland that was only

385
00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:02,160
about a couple blocks away from the fda

386
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:04,880
to meet with him and essentially let

387
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:07,760
purdue pharma write their own

388
00:15:12,230 --> 00:15:09,839
new drug approval

389
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:12,240
recommendation to the fda that curtis

390
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:16,000
wright submitted under his own name

391
00:15:22,629 --> 00:15:19,440
surprise surprise dr wright left the fda

392
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:22,639
shortly after oxycontin was approved

393
00:15:28,069 --> 00:15:24,720
and put onto the market and took a 400

394
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:28,079
000 job at purdue right so i mean if

395
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,480
that doesn't scream corruption to you

396
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:32,880
i don't know what does

397
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:36,399
where purdue was really able to

398
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:39,199
sneak into the market under the claim

399
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:42,000
that it was less than one percent

400
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,639
addictive to folks who took it

401
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:46,399
was something called the delayed

402
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:48,800
absorption statement right

403
00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,440
it was on the black box warning that the

404
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:53,519
fda approved the delayed absorption

405
00:15:58,949 --> 00:15:55,680
statement basically said that

406
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:58,959
because oxycontin had this protective

407
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:01,519
coating on it that it would be released

408
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:04,079
into the bloodstream over 12 hours it

409
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:05,839
wouldn't be something that you know

410
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,800
would be instant release or also

411
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:11,120
otherwise known as ir

412
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:13,120
and because of this delayed absorption

413
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:15,759
of the product of the medication it was

414
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:18,160
less than one percent addictive the fda

415
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:20,160
allowed that right allowed that

416
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:21,279
marketing

417
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,639
curtis wright wrote it and purdue

418
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:26,480
really doubled down

419
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:28,800
on that messaging they

420
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:31,600
hired doctors they had massive amounts

421
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:34,880
of television ads they did educational

422
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,600
forums with different pain management

423
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:39,920
folks here in the united states and

424
00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:41,839
abroad where they hammered that

425
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:43,600
messaging into them that it was less

426
00:16:47,910 --> 00:16:45,519
than one percent addictive that this was

427
00:16:49,910 --> 00:16:47,920
a revolutionary drug that was going to

428
00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:49,920
just change the course of how we treated

429
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:53,920
pain now what we saw as a result of that

430
00:16:59,590 --> 00:16:58,000
was a market right that was craving the

431
00:17:02,430 --> 00:16:59,600
medication because they were being

432
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:02,440
prescribed to it for things like

433
00:17:07,909 --> 00:17:05,360
fibromyalgia and you know minor back

434
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:07,919
pain and minor surgeries and sport

435
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:10,240
injuries for kids who were in high

436
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,360
school

437
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:13,199
and the market continued to grow and

438
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:16,559
then we started to see this ballooning

439
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,039
pill mill epidemic which is how i got

440
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:21,600
caught up in it in the early 2000s

441
00:17:26,029 --> 00:17:23,439
doctors literally coming out of

442
00:17:28,950 --> 00:17:26,039
retirement who were optimologists and

443
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,960
gynecologists and were not pain specific

444
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:31,600
doctors saw the dollar signs saw the

445
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:34,160
incentives that were coming from purdue

446
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:36,160
and companies like it and were opening

447
00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:38,559
these clinics everywhere and before you

448
00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:39,600
knew it

449
00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:42,080
oxycontin became a cure-all pill for

450
00:17:45,990 --> 00:17:44,080
everything i can remember my doctor

451
00:17:48,549 --> 00:17:46,000
telling me that it even would help with

452
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:48,559
my depression i had a doctor that told

453
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:51,840
me not to worry that if i felt kind of

454
00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:54,400
woozy or i or i was feeling a little

455
00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:56,240
sick if i didn't have the medication

456
00:18:00,950 --> 00:17:58,880
that this was just very normal for

457
00:18:03,029 --> 00:18:00,960
people who were on these and

458
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:03,039
it didn't mean that i was drug dependent

459
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:04,960
or i was addicted

460
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:07,840
it just meant that i was quote unquote

461
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:11,200
pseudo addicted which was a term coined

462
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:14,720
by dr david haddix at purdue pharma who

463
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:17,440
work for purdue who just made this term

464
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:20,559
up out of nowhere printed it in medical

465
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:23,440
journals that said that pseudo addiction

466
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:26,080
is just it feels like addiction but it's

467
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:28,960
not really addiction because you have a

468
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:31,200
significant pain issue i mean the whole

469
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:34,000
thing was a racket now underneath this

470
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:36,559
though the federal government and state

471
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:37,679
governments

472
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:39,039
didn't just

473
00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:40,880
allow this to happen they almost

474
00:18:45,990 --> 00:18:43,840
incentivized it to happen right

475
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:46,000
it's frustrating because it was just a

476
00:18:52,630 --> 00:18:49,840
fix all 360.

477
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:52,640
yeah and good point about

478
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:55,520
what doctors tell their patients because

479
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:58,080
i think with this issue there's a lot of

480
00:19:01,909 --> 00:18:59,600
uh

481
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:01,919
maybe victim blaming or just a lack of

482
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:04,080
empathy people say things like well if

483
00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:05,520
you're stupid enough to get hooked on

484
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:07,679
oxycontin i don't know what to tell you

485
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:08,559
and

486
00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:11,120
the reality is that people in the early

487
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:13,200
stages before this drug had the

488
00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:15,440
reputation it has they're told by their

489
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:17,600
doctors that it's not addictive that

490
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:19,840
it'll help with depression all kinds of

491
00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:21,840
things and that's obviously because

492
00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:24,320
they're getting their kickbacks but you

493
00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:26,320
gotta have some empathy for people who

494
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,240
are straight up lied to maybe if someone

495
00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:30,720
gets hooked on oxycontin today with all

496
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:32,320
the things we know about it maybe you

497
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:34,080
wouldn't have the same level of sympathy

498
00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:35,840
but the reason it got the reputation it

499
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:38,160
did is because it did so much damage

500
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:40,640
before people really knew

501
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:45,360
right and i mean it's hard for me to

502
00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:46,799
sometimes

503
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:48,400
look back to

504
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:52,799
2003 2004 when i really started using

505
00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:55,360
these medications a lot particularly

506
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:56,880
oxycontin

507
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:58,799
and i feel

508
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:01,200
naive right because i wish i would have

509
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:03,360
known then what i know now and i

510
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:05,200
sometimes have to look back and try and

511
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:07,200
put myself in my shoes where i was in

512
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,559
2003 2004 and i can tell you and i know

513
00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:12,480
it sounds a little ridiculous if you're

514
00:20:16,789 --> 00:20:15,600
new to this subject but at the time i

515
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:16,799
really

516
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:19,520
did not make the connection between

517
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:21,039
oxycontin

518
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:22,799
and then potentially

519
00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:25,679
losing my life being unemployed becoming

520
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:28,240
homeless becoming dependent like my

521
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:31,200
entire survival part of my brain just

522
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:34,159
dependent on this one medication

523
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:36,799
i thought that it was as normal as

524
00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:40,000
aspirin as crazy as that sounds i can

525
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:42,240
remember getting my first prescription

526
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:44,640
and being told like this is gonna

527
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:47,679
provide a tremendous amount of

528
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,919
alleviating of pain symptoms and other

529
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:51,280
symptoms that i have and it's going to

530
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:53,280
make me more productive and i remember

531
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:55,280
having that pill bottle with my name on

532
00:21:03,750 --> 00:20:56,480
it

533
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:03,760
the office i had other colleagues who

534
00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:05,600
were on it you know and like isn't that

535
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:08,080
oxycontin just like a miracle drug and i

536
00:21:11,909 --> 00:21:09,679
was working in politics at the time

537
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:11,919
right i can remember i mean family

538
00:21:15,430 --> 00:21:13,440
members of mine who had headaches and

539
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:15,440
asked me if they could have half of an

540
00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:17,039
oxy because it will solve it and they've

541
00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:18,240
heard so many great things about the

542
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,000
drug i mean like

543
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:22,159
we just didn't know and this was

544
00:21:25,669 --> 00:21:23,280
happening

545
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:25,679
in millions of households across the

546
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:29,280
country and it just spread like wildfire

547
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:31,120
part of the crime though

548
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:33,120
was that the dea

549
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:35,520
right who many will lift up and say look

550
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:37,600
at all the great work that the dea has

551
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:39,200
done on this issue well yeah i mean

552
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:41,360
their little johnny come lately but if

553
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:44,080
you ask me the dea kind of gaslit this

554
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:47,600
as well because the dea had the data

555
00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:50,320
they had the data the prescribing data

556
00:21:55,669 --> 00:21:53,840
that showed how much oxy was being

557
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:55,679
prescribed in these communities and they

558
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:58,400
did nothing about it they just

559
00:22:02,870 --> 00:22:01,200
allowed it to happen purdue

560
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:02,880
knew what was happening and when these

561
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:03,840
drugs

562
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:05,600
started showing up

563
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:07,679
in the mid 2000s

564
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:10,559
in the pockets of coal miners in

565
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:14,240
appalachia who were overdosing or

566
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:16,000
ending up dead

567
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:17,679
and data started to come in that these

568
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:19,120
deaths were

569
00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:21,600
possibly connected to this pill this

570
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,880
medication

571
00:22:28,029 --> 00:22:24,960
nobody did anything we could imagine a

572
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:28,039
different world where in you know 2004

573
00:22:33,029 --> 00:22:31,919
2005 you know the dea has got this data

574
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:33,039
and

575
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,720
hey

576
00:22:40,870 --> 00:22:38,640
this is a problem this medication's

577
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:40,880
killing people we should do something

578
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:42,799
about it maybe we need to scale back

579
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:44,720
maybe we need to look at the formulation

580
00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:46,799
maybe we need to not look at this claim

581
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:49,039
we've got around delayed absorption and

582
00:22:54,950 --> 00:22:52,240
one percent of folks getting addicted no

583
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:54,960
that's not what happened they pled

584
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:57,679
guilty in 2007

585
00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:01,039
three executives pled guilty of which

586
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:03,120
none of them served any jail time it was

587
00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:05,840
just massive civil criminal fines with

588
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:07,440
department of justice in about i think

589
00:23:11,270 --> 00:23:09,600
it was about 600 million dollars and you

590
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:11,280
would think hey

591
00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:13,440
it would end right there right we're

592
00:23:16,630 --> 00:23:14,960
gonna do something about this we're

593
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:16,640
gonna change this

594
00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:18,640
no instead

595
00:23:25,669 --> 00:23:20,400
they doubled down

596
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:25,679
what they were doing except worse and

597
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,720
more people continued to die

598
00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:30,159
ugh

599
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:32,559
man and just to elaborate on your

600
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:34,240
personal story a little bit more yeah

601
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:36,320
you used to work in the white house you

602
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:38,480
were at a very high level uh doing what

603
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:41,120
you do oxycodone also wasn't the first

604
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:43,600
thing you were prescribed anyway

605
00:23:48,070 --> 00:23:46,320
and i'm just curious when you knew it

606
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:48,080
was a problem because the transition

607
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:49,600
that seems difficult for me to

608
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:51,919
understand from an outsider perspective

609
00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:54,960
is moving from a prescription medication

610
00:23:57,350 --> 00:23:55,679
to

611
00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:57,360
shooting up heroin with a needle and

612
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:59,600
having it run your life is that just

613
00:24:03,669 --> 00:24:00,960
what happens when they won't give you

614
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:03,679
the pills anymore talk to us about that

615
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:04,480
real

616
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:05,840
rock bottom

617
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:08,720
place and and how you really get there

618
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,720
yeah that's a great question greg so i

619
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,799
mean you're right you know i was

620
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:14,720
very interested in politics from a young

621
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:15,679
age

622
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:18,960
i did land a job in the white house when

623
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:21,600
i was in college left that job in the

624
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:23,600
early 2000s and took a political

625
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:26,000
organizing job in dc and

626
00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:28,000
had a really bad slip and fall like you

627
00:24:33,269 --> 00:24:31,520
said in 2003 which cracked my ankle and

628
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:33,279
my knee and ended up in the care of an

629
00:24:36,789 --> 00:24:34,960
urgent care physician

630
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:36,799
right outside of maryland and that

631
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:38,000
physician

632
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:39,919
wrapped my my leg and said hey you're

633
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:41,520
going to need to get an mri here and get

634
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:42,880
this checked out but in the meantime

635
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:44,080
here's a prescription to help with the

636
00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:44,880
pain

637
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:47,200
and it was dilaudid which is for folks

638
00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:48,880
who don't know it's a very high grade

639
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,240
opioid it's

640
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:52,000
kind of you know strong morphine in a

641
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,880
pill

642
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:54,480
and what i didn't know at the time is

643
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:56,080
that actually was a purdue product as

644
00:25:02,710 --> 00:24:59,120
well dilaudid is a brand purdue product

645
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:02,720
and it didn't my journey to homelessness

646
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:03,600
and

647
00:25:11,190 --> 00:25:09,200
life

648
00:25:15,029 --> 00:25:11,200
wasn't too much of a protracted journey

649
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:15,039
and it did happen over time i

650
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:17,120
had to move back home to florida shortly

651
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:18,720
after that injury because my father had

652
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:20,080
passed away

653
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:22,080
and i remember going into my primary

654
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:23,679
care physician and saying hey doc i've

655
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:25,120
got this problem with my knee in my

656
00:25:28,789 --> 00:25:26,880
ankle i was seeing this urgent care

657
00:25:30,470 --> 00:25:28,799
physician in maryland you know what do i

658
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:30,480
do and my doc was like oh no i don't do

659
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:32,400
pain management but if you look in the

660
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:34,799
back of the miami new times you'll see

661
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:38,080
there's like hundreds of places that do

662
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:39,840
and that's what i did i looked in the

663
00:25:43,430 --> 00:25:42,000
back of the new times and i mean i

664
00:25:45,830 --> 00:25:43,440
remember the ads it was like we

665
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:45,840
prescribe oxy we take care of your pain

666
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:48,159
we guarantee you'll be pain-free within

667
00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:49,600
48 hours

668
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:52,400
call us see doctor so and so

669
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:53,279
and

670
00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:55,200
when you look at the amount of pain

671
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:57,200
clinics that existed

672
00:26:01,029 --> 00:25:59,279
and this is a real number there were

673
00:26:02,630 --> 00:26:01,039
more pain clinics where i lived in

674
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:02,640
broward county florida miami-dade and

675
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:04,640
broward county florida than there were

676
00:26:08,789 --> 00:26:06,720
7-elevens in mcdonald's i mean there

677
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:08,799
were that many

678
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:09,840
and

679
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,320
after my first visit with my first pain

680
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:14,799
doctor which was a woman named dr julia

681
00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:17,440
she had prescribed my first oxycontin

682
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:20,000
and over time

683
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:22,080
i started to develop a physical

684
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:24,480
dependence although i didn't really

685
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:26,880
again connect the dots because i was

686
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:29,520
taking them as prescribed i was taking

687
00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:32,640
them every 12 hours but my body if i

688
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:34,320
didn't have them every 12 hours would

689
00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:36,000
start to go into what we know as

690
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:37,440
withdrawal

691
00:26:44,870 --> 00:26:42,000
the time and i can remember

692
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:44,880
late 2004 i was sitting in my office

693
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:46,720
i had missed my doctor's appointment

694
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:47,840
that morning

695
00:26:53,269 --> 00:26:50,880
and i thought no problem you know i'll

696
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,279
just make another appointment tomorrow

697
00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:54,960
or the next day and i'll i'll get to see

698
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:56,799
the doc and get my medication refilled

699
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:58,480
it'll be fine you know i'll just trudge

700
00:27:01,510 --> 00:26:59,440
through

701
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:01,520
and by about five o'clock

702
00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:03,039
when the day ended

703
00:27:12,789 --> 00:27:04,159
i

704
00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:12,799
sweat and my stomach was really upset

705
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:15,120
and i went into the bathroom and i

706
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,039
splashed some water in my face

707
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,200
and i looked at myself and i said

708
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:21,200
could this maybe have anything to do

709
00:27:25,669 --> 00:27:23,600
with the medication they came back to my

710
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:25,679
desk and googled and you know sure

711
00:27:29,669 --> 00:27:27,360
enough

712
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:29,679
yeah it was a result of not having my

713
00:27:33,110 --> 00:27:31,039
meds and

714
00:27:34,710 --> 00:27:33,120
i was so sick at the time my first

715
00:27:37,350 --> 00:27:34,720
thought wasn't

716
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:37,360
hey ryan you might have a problem you

717
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:38,720
may need to

718
00:27:45,190 --> 00:27:42,960
to your doctor or something no my first

719
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:45,200
thought was i need more medication

720
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:46,559
so i called another doctor and got

721
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:48,960
another script and before you know it my

722
00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:51,679
tolerance kept going up and it got to a

723
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:53,520
point where in order for me to function

724
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:55,919
over the course of three or four years

725
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:57,840
i needed those pills if i didn't have

726
00:28:00,789 --> 00:27:59,360
those pills for anybody who's listening

727
00:28:02,470 --> 00:28:00,799
if you haven't been through withdrawal

728
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:02,480
or seen somebody you love go through

729
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:04,000
opioid withdrawal

730
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:04,960
it is

731
00:28:09,029 --> 00:28:06,559
single-handedly

732
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:09,039
one of the worst experiences a human

733
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:11,840
being physically can go through

734
00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:13,840
you can't get out of bed your mind

735
00:28:18,389 --> 00:28:16,080
doesn't work your entire survival system

736
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:18,399
of your brain is hijacked

737
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:21,120
having the medication is more important

738
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:23,760
to you than basic needs such as food and

739
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:24,960
shelter

740
00:28:28,630 --> 00:28:27,039
it's impossible to work if you don't

741
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:28,640
have the medication

742
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:30,559
i was completely hooked and i was

743
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:32,399
already beyond the point of just being

744
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:33,919
able to stop

745
00:28:40,149 --> 00:28:37,919
so fast forward two or three years

746
00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:40,159
i was at a point where i

747
00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:41,840
knew i had a problem

748
00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:43,760
i had identified i had a problem but i

749
00:28:47,029 --> 00:28:44,799
was

750
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:47,039
unable to get help

751
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:49,200
it just wasn't available to me

752
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:50,240
and

753
00:29:30,950 --> 00:28:51,360
i

754
00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:30,960
there were all these people that were

755
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:32,559
taking these medications and they were

756
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:34,960
seeing overdose numbers spike

757
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:37,520
and the state of florida legislature

758
00:29:40,789 --> 00:29:39,279
decided the way to do it was just to cut

759
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:40,799
off the supply

760
00:29:44,630 --> 00:29:42,720
they were going to create this

761
00:29:47,269 --> 00:29:44,640
prescription drug monitoring database

762
00:29:49,590 --> 00:29:47,279
which is now known as a pdmp which does

763
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:49,600
a lot of good right now in 2022 because

764
00:29:53,190 --> 00:29:51,760
it provides us some needed data but when

765
00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:53,200
it first started

766
00:29:57,430 --> 00:29:55,200
it was all about just kind of tracking

767
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,440
the people who are using the medications

768
00:30:02,070 --> 00:29:59,760
using too many of the medications seeing

769
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:02,080
more than one doctor which i was

770
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:03,840
and cutting them off right basically

771
00:30:08,310 --> 00:30:06,000
saying it's the patient's problem it's

772
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:08,320
the addict's problem it's definitely not

773
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:09,600
the doctor

774
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:11,919
and i showed up at one of my doctor's

775
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:13,360
appointments

776
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:15,039
coming to the late 2000s i think around

777
00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:16,880
2008 2009

778
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:18,640
and the doctor who knew

779
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:21,039
i had been misusing the medications the

780
00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:22,559
doctor i was seeing was actually

781
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:25,120
misusing the medications themselves

782
00:30:28,870 --> 00:30:27,760
i had seen her high multiple times in

783
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:28,880
the office

784
00:30:33,909 --> 00:30:31,360
and i walked in to get my script and she

785
00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:33,919
pulls out this long rap sheet and she's

786
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:36,880
like you're getting too much medication

787
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:39,279
you're seeing too many doctors

788
00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:40,799
we have this new law in the state of

789
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:43,200
florida i could lose my license if i

790
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:45,600
prescribe this to you today you're a

791
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:48,559
junkie you're a drug seeker i shouldn't

792
00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:50,880
be treating you get the hell out of my

793
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:53,200
office if you ever come back here i'm

794
00:30:57,430 --> 00:30:56,240
gonna have you arrested for trespassing

795
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:57,440
right

796
00:31:01,750 --> 00:30:59,600
mind you this is after she took my 200

797
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:01,760
cash for my appointment and i remember

798
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:03,760
looking at her and saying what do you

799
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,159
mean how am i supposed to survive

800
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:08,399
what am i supposed to do i need this

801
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:10,720
medication i was sick i was in

802
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:12,799
withdrawal she said i don't care get the

803
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:14,720
hell out of my office

804
00:31:18,870 --> 00:31:17,120
and this wasn't just happening to me

805
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:18,880
this was happening to thousands of

806
00:31:21,990 --> 00:31:21,120
people all across the state at the same

807
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:22,000
time

808
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:24,960
and when i walked out of that office

809
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:27,679
you know people think seeking help is

810
00:31:30,789 --> 00:31:28,640
easy

811
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:30,799
it's not particularly when you're in

812
00:31:36,549 --> 00:31:34,559
withdrawal all you want is that next hit

813
00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:36,559
and there was a heroin dealer right

814
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,600
there

815
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:39,600
in that parking lot

816
00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:41,440
who was willing to get me well right

817
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:44,559
there and heroin was cheaper

818
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:47,600
way cheaper than the medication it was

819
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:49,200
more available

820
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:51,600
i didn't need to go to a doctor and it

821
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:53,360
did the trick for what i was looking for

822
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:54,640
at the time

823
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:57,200
and that's how i ended up addicted to

824
00:32:02,710 --> 00:31:59,360
heroin that's how i almost lost my life

825
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:02,720
that's how i became an iv user

826
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:05,039
and it's scary when i think back you

827
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:07,600
know and thank god i i say to my partner

828
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:09,600
and my family all the time

829
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:12,320
that this didn't happen to me

830
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:15,440
now in 2022 because the drug supply is

831
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:17,600
poisoned with fentanyl i probably would

832
00:32:21,430 --> 00:32:19,840
not be here today to tell this story but

833
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:21,440
that's how it happened to me and that's

834
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:23,840
how it happened to many others across

835
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:25,440
this country

836
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:27,919
damn damn that guy knew right where to

837
00:32:32,149 --> 00:32:29,519
be

838
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:32,159
uh it's like the old joke of looking for

839
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:33,919
loose women at an abortion clinic

840
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:36,399
because you just know that they get down

841
00:32:40,630 --> 00:32:38,720
it's like well this is the place to find

842
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:40,640
your customers if you're trying to sell

843
00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:42,880
heroin because they're trying to get

844
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:44,080
treatment here and you know they're

845
00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:45,440
being cut off

846
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:47,679
man that that's really sad and i've

847
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,159
known someone who had fibromyalgia so

848
00:32:53,909 --> 00:32:52,159
you're already dealing with pain they

849
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:53,919
didn't have support from their parents

850
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:55,679
they didn't have insurance they couldn't

851
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:56,480
really

852
00:33:00,149 --> 00:32:58,640
work because of the pain and then they

853
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:00,159
started getting heroin they're like look

854
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:03,039
it's cheaper and it makes the pain stop

855
00:33:08,630 --> 00:33:05,440
yeah and it's just really sad to someone

856
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:08,640
who's like sees heroin is so dirty and

857
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:11,279
a bridge so far from their reality it's

858
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:13,120
like well you don't wake up every day

859
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:15,279
with pain so what do you know about it

860
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:16,880
but well let me just say something about

861
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:17,919
that though really quick because you

862
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:20,080
make an important point like

863
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:22,480
part of the way that

864
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:25,120
addiction and pain both right it's kind

865
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:27,600
of two sides of the same pill

866
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:29,600
pain in this country has been

867
00:33:33,269 --> 00:33:31,919
stigmatized pain patients have been

868
00:33:35,269 --> 00:33:33,279
stigmatized

869
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:35,279
um people with addiction have been

870
00:33:40,549 --> 00:33:37,360
stigmatized people with addiction can't

871
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:40,559
get adequate care or support once

872
00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:42,320
they're identified as having an

873
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:44,720
addiction they can't get the right types

874
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:47,120
of supports to keep them alive and

875
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:48,880
people with pain suffer because they

876
00:33:54,389 --> 00:33:51,440
can't get adequate types of medication

877
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:54,399
or therapeutics right so like both the

878
00:33:58,230 --> 00:33:55,840
pain community

879
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:58,240
and the addiction community have been

880
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:00,640
harmed tremendously

881
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,120
by pharmaceutical companies and by the

882
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:05,440
government and we've been traditionally

883
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:07,840
pitted up against each other which has

884
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:10,159
been to the benefit of the government

885
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:12,079
and the benefit to these pharmaceutical

886
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,919
companies when in fact we should be

887
00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:15,839
working together right

888
00:34:18,869 --> 00:34:17,760
we've seen it play out time and again

889
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:18,879
you can see

890
00:34:23,750 --> 00:34:21,200
in the history of the overdose crisis

891
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,760
like the amount of money that these

892
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:25,440
pharmaceutical companies put in to

893
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:29,440
create these fake pain advocacy groups

894
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:31,919
right to fight the addiction

895
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:33,520
community and say we're nothing but

896
00:34:36,710 --> 00:34:35,679
dirty addicts right and it's all our

897
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:36,720
fault

898
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:38,639
and they weren't even real groups like

899
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:41,040
these were like shadow or this was like

900
00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:43,359
dark money i mean these are tactics that

901
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:46,320
pharmaceutical companies still use today

902
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:47,280
yeah

903
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:52,399
highlighting and let's get into that

904
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:54,879
purdue trial talk to us about all the

905
00:34:59,829 --> 00:34:57,200
lawsuits that were coming at the company

906
00:35:01,750 --> 00:34:59,839
and the sacklers and what changed when

907
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:01,760
they filed for bankruptcy

908
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:04,480
wow so this is where i get like really

909
00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:07,040
wound up and thanks for letting me take

910
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:09,040
a little bit time to talk about it so

911
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:11,760
i had you know set my target on purdue

912
00:35:16,870 --> 00:35:14,560
pharma early on in my recovery

913
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:16,880
i was one of the biggest thorns and

914
00:35:20,230 --> 00:35:18,160
continued to be one of the biggest

915
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:20,240
thorns not just in the company but in

916
00:35:26,069 --> 00:35:23,200
the sackler side for quite some time

917
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:26,079
i started to connect the dots between

918
00:35:29,670 --> 00:35:28,160
the sackler family and purdue and the

919
00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:29,680
deaths of my friends and what i

920
00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:30,880
experienced

921
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:34,640
sometime around 2016 and in 2018

922
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:38,240
i had the largest protest direct action

923
00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:39,920
in front of purdue pharma headquarters

924
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:43,119
with 500 people really demanding

925
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:44,560
accountability

926
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:45,680
and

927
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:49,040
we had always thought that

928
00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:51,760
maybe our day would come maybe our day

929
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:53,839
would come when the sacklers would face

930
00:35:58,470 --> 00:35:56,079
the same sort of justice system that

931
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:58,480
everyday americans have to face which is

932
00:36:03,109 --> 00:36:00,880
before a jury of their peers

933
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:03,119
and they got wrapped up in something

934
00:36:07,349 --> 00:36:04,960
called the multi-district litigation

935
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:07,359
which is still being negotiated

936
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:10,240
in ohio and judge pollster's courtroom

937
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:11,520
which is where

938
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:13,440
all of the pharmaceutical manufacturers

939
00:36:18,790 --> 00:36:15,920
and distributors right so like mckesson

940
00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:18,800
and johnson and johnson amerisource

941
00:36:21,910 --> 00:36:20,000
virgin and

942
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:21,920
cvs caremark pharmacy and some of the

943
00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:24,240
other pharmacies and purdue pharma we're

944
00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:27,760
all lumped together in this one massive

945
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:30,000
test trial in ohio to see if they could

946
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:32,320
come up with some sort of settlement

947
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:33,359
and

948
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,640
purdue

949
00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:36,640
was being sued

950
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:38,400
by so many different states i mean there

951
00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:41,680
were 2700 different lawsuits between

952
00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:44,240
states and municipalities and cities

953
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:46,079
against purdue pharma

954
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:48,720
and they decided in september of 2019

955
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:51,440
they were going to pull the rip cord

956
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:53,119
to get out of the multi-district

957
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:54,480
litigation

958
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:57,040
because of how many lawsuits against

959
00:37:01,589 --> 00:36:59,440
them they had against them their

960
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:01,599
liability was so high

961
00:37:05,589 --> 00:37:03,520
um that they

962
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:05,599
figured they would claim bankruptcy

963
00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:06,480
right

964
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:08,079
but it wasn't just about claiming

965
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:10,400
bankruptcy for them by claiming

966
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:13,040
bankruptcy they were able to remove

967
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:15,920
themselves from the ohio test trial

968
00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:17,520
and some of the other bellwether trials

969
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:18,960
across the nation

970
00:37:23,670 --> 00:37:21,599
and essentially pick their judge and

971
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:23,680
pause all of the litigation pause the

972
00:37:29,349 --> 00:37:26,960
2700 lawsuits so they went overnight in

973
00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:29,359
september of 2019 by filing for chapter

974
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:32,240
11 from pollster's courtroom it was a

975
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:34,079
pretty stern judge to be able to pick

976
00:37:37,829 --> 00:37:35,359
their venue

977
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:37,839
which was white plains new york for them

978
00:37:42,870 --> 00:37:41,040
under bankruptcy judge robert d drain

979
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:42,880
who is incredibly debtor friendly and

980
00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:44,240
when i say debtor friendly that's kind

981
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:46,240
of a bankruptcy term that i've learned

982
00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:47,760
the last couple years which means

983
00:37:51,990 --> 00:37:50,240
company friendly right like he is known

984
00:37:53,910 --> 00:37:52,000
that if there's you know an issue where

985
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:53,920
there's a tie between creditors and the

986
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:56,480
company that the company usually wins

987
00:38:00,510 --> 00:37:58,720
but judge drain was also very well known

988
00:38:03,349 --> 00:38:00,520
for issuing something called a

989
00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:03,359
non-consensual third party release

990
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:06,160
which in layman's terms meant if the

991
00:38:09,670 --> 00:38:07,760
sackler family

992
00:38:11,589 --> 00:38:09,680
wrote a big check

993
00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:11,599
to cover creditors

994
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:14,320
assets the money owed to creditors

995
00:38:21,270 --> 00:38:17,280
that they could receive civil immunity

996
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:21,280
from any sort of litigation related to

997
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:23,200
the opioid crisis

998
00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:25,680
it's the biggest scam in the world right

999
00:38:30,069 --> 00:38:28,079
so if you get caught with a crime if i

1000
00:38:32,310 --> 00:38:30,079
get caught with a crime

1001
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:32,320
we don't have the option of saying huh

1002
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:34,000
let me look around the map and figure

1003
00:38:38,950 --> 00:38:35,839
out what judge

1004
00:38:41,829 --> 00:38:38,960
would be best suited to my needs and

1005
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:41,839
what judge is most likely to be able to

1006
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:44,720
like get me immunity so i'm never sued

1007
00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:46,560
for anything ever again related to the

1008
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:48,320
crimes that i've committed that doesn't

1009
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:51,920
exist but in bankruptcy court it does

1010
00:38:57,030 --> 00:38:54,640
and that's what put purdue pharma

1011
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:57,040
and essentially the sacklers into

1012
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:59,359
chapter 11 in white plains new york

1013
00:39:03,430 --> 00:39:01,200
under judge dream

1014
00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:03,440
the big caveat here though is that the

1015
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:05,200
sacklers never had to file for

1016
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:08,560
bankruptcy themselves so they were able

1017
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:10,640
and continue to be able

1018
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:13,680
to benefit from the bankruptcy system

1019
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:14,400
by

1020
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:16,160
writing a check

1021
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:18,560
under the plan that was developed

1022
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:21,200
without having to forfeit all of their

1023
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:23,680
money right there's models out there

1024
00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:26,240
that show that the sacklers if these

1025
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:28,240
non-consensual releases are actually

1026
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:30,000
upheld in the second circuit which is

1027
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:31,359
where it's at right now because they

1028
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:32,560
were just

1029
00:39:37,030 --> 00:39:34,880
recently vacated by a district judge

1030
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:37,040
that they could actually be richer than

1031
00:39:40,790 --> 00:39:38,560
they are before

1032
00:39:42,470 --> 00:39:40,800
assuming their investments in a healthy

1033
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:42,480
interest rate it's all very

1034
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:45,200
complex stuff that i detail in unsettled

1035
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:48,320
in great length but in a nutshell it is

1036
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:50,960
billionaire justice in this country it

1037
00:39:56,069 --> 00:39:54,000
is complete billionaire justice now it's

1038
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:56,079
important for the audience to know that

1039
00:40:00,310 --> 00:39:58,560
this case is actually playing out in

1040
00:40:02,310 --> 00:40:00,320
real time right now

1041
00:40:05,030 --> 00:40:02,320
there was a plan a bankruptcy plan

1042
00:40:07,109 --> 00:40:05,040
approved by judge drain in september

1043
00:40:09,510 --> 00:40:07,119
just this past september

1044
00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:09,520
it was overturned on appeal by a

1045
00:40:13,109 --> 00:40:10,960
district court

1046
00:40:15,109 --> 00:40:13,119
by judge colleen mcmahon in the southern

1047
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:15,119
district of new york district court and

1048
00:40:17,589 --> 00:40:16,880
now it's headed to the second circuit

1049
00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:17,599
for

1050
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:19,760
hopefully what will be a final decision

1051
00:40:24,870 --> 00:40:21,760
so it's been back and forth constantly

1052
00:40:26,790 --> 00:40:24,880
but i got involved in this and really

1053
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:26,800
started to peek under the hood

1054
00:40:32,150 --> 00:40:29,280
when i heard they filed for bankruptcy

1055
00:40:34,230 --> 00:40:32,160
in september of 2019 and i had been

1056
00:40:36,630 --> 00:40:34,240
talking to some lawyers about potential

1057
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:36,640
class action lawsuits against the

1058
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:39,440
sacklers prior to that and one of them

1059
00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:40,880
reached out to me and said you know hey

1060
00:40:44,710 --> 00:40:42,880
ryan now that they're in bankruptcy

1061
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:44,720
court this changes the game completely

1062
00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:46,240
it kind of moves

1063
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:48,880
the whole process if you're a sports fan

1064
00:40:53,109 --> 00:40:51,520
from a basketball court where you know

1065
00:40:56,150 --> 00:40:53,119
attorneys general are really good at

1066
00:40:58,470 --> 00:40:56,160
playing legal games onto an ice hockey

1067
00:41:01,109 --> 00:40:58,480
rink which is in bankruptcy court this

1068
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:01,119
completely different set of rules

1069
00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:04,240
that most lawyers aren't aware of and

1070
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:06,480
there's a committee a very powerful

1071
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:08,720
committee called the unsecured creditors

1072
00:41:10,950 --> 00:41:09,680
committee

1073
00:41:13,349 --> 00:41:10,960
that's appointed by the department of

1074
00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:13,359
justice it'll be a nine-member committee

1075
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:15,040
that you can apply to be a part of and

1076
00:41:18,150 --> 00:41:17,280
what that committee serves as is pretty

1077
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:18,160
much

1078
00:41:23,109 --> 00:41:20,800
the watchdog of the process but it also

1079
00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:23,119
has the ability to negotiate the

1080
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:25,200
settlement on behalf of 600 000

1081
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:27,359
creditors it has the ability to get in

1082
00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:29,280
to the sackler's financials to see if

1083
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:31,760
the settlement spared has the ability to

1084
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:32,960
conduct

1085
00:41:36,950 --> 00:41:35,119
depositions it has the ability to take

1086
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:36,960
discovery which means i'd be able to see

1087
00:41:41,430 --> 00:41:39,200
sackler emails and see a lot of the

1088
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:41,440
things that we thought we knew

1089
00:41:45,349 --> 00:41:43,280
and maybe get some proof i thought it

1090
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:45,359
would be cathartic for me to go through

1091
00:41:50,950 --> 00:41:48,640
this process to represent families and

1092
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:50,960
victims who have been harmed so much and

1093
00:41:55,430 --> 00:41:53,680
to be there to use my voice right i was

1094
00:41:57,589 --> 00:41:55,440
actually hopeful in the beginning

1095
00:41:59,910 --> 00:41:57,599
because i envisioned this process where

1096
00:42:01,349 --> 00:41:59,920
it was all these state attorney generals

1097
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:01,359
and the united states department of

1098
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:03,760
justice and the victims and the

1099
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,720
companies and like all of us on one side

1100
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:08,880
of the table and then the sacklers in

1101
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:10,960
purdue on the other side of the table

1102
00:42:15,910 --> 00:42:12,560
and that at the end of the day justice

1103
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:15,920
would be done right that purdue would be

1104
00:42:21,109 --> 00:42:18,720
reduced to nothing but this crappy

1105
00:42:23,030 --> 00:42:21,119
company with no money and they'd have to

1106
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:23,040
give the dollars to the victims and that

1107
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:25,920
the sacklers would see some real justice

1108
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:26,880
and

1109
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,040
maybe just maybe

1110
00:42:33,589 --> 00:42:31,440
we could do some good here and boy was i

1111
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:33,599
mistaken

1112
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:36,880
the whole process was set up to benefit

1113
00:42:40,309 --> 00:42:38,000
everybody

1114
00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:40,319
but the people who were harmed the most

1115
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:41,440
right

1116
00:42:45,910 --> 00:42:43,520
victims were sidelined every step of the

1117
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:45,920
way and two years ago if you would have

1118
00:42:49,430 --> 00:42:46,880
asked me

1119
00:42:51,270 --> 00:42:49,440
that one of my larger banners that i'd

1120
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:51,280
be carrying coming out of this process

1121
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:52,560
would be

1122
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:55,599
massive bankruptcy reform

1123
00:42:59,589 --> 00:42:56,960
i would have said you're crazy i know

1124
00:43:01,109 --> 00:42:59,599
nothing about bankruptcy the bankruptcy

1125
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:01,119
system in this country is one of the

1126
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:03,680
most corrupt rigged

1127
00:43:08,550 --> 00:43:05,119
systems i've

1128
00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:10,630
wow and there's a lot of competition for

1129
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:12,880
the most corrupt system in this country

1130
00:43:17,589 --> 00:43:15,440
but i wanted to make sure that we fit

1131
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:17,599
into the first hour this thing we talked

1132
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,119
about a couple weeks ago where you had

1133
00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:21,040
mentioned that you found another villain

1134
00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:23,680
in this story in the state attorney

1135
00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:26,240
generals and that it's not really a very

1136
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:28,480
popular narrative well tell us a little

1137
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:30,880
bit more about this and and why it isn't

1138
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:32,720
popular to talk about or why people

1139
00:43:37,510 --> 00:43:35,200
don't like to look at this

1140
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:37,520
greg it's probably like one of the most

1141
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:39,599
unpopular narratives that i've put out

1142
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:41,040
there

1143
00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:43,280
and it hasn't gotten much coverage in

1144
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:45,520
mainstream media because folks don't

1145
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:48,000
like to hear it and it's really angered

1146
00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:50,640
me because i i write it's actually i

1147
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:52,560
believe the state attorneys general in

1148
00:43:58,710 --> 00:43:56,160
unsettled are as much of a villain as

1149
00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:58,720
some of these pharmaceutical companies

1150
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:01,200
not only because they were complicit

1151
00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:02,880
but really what they do behind closed

1152
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:04,319
doors so

1153
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,200
when

1154
00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:07,040
i again

1155
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:10,000
came to this process with this thought

1156
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:13,040
that victims should be first

1157
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:14,240
always

1158
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:16,640
and when i say victims i mean the actual

1159
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:19,520
individuals who were harmed that the

1160
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:23,280
individuals who lost their loved ones

1161
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,160
or folks like me and my mom right my

1162
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:28,800
mother who spent in our family who spent

1163
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:30,160
close to probably a half a million

1164
00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:32,560
dollars in money we didn't have on

1165
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:35,200
treatment right because of oxycontin

1166
00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:37,599
credit card bills mortgages that are

1167
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:39,520
still being paid off today

1168
00:44:43,270 --> 00:44:40,400
and

1169
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:43,280
the state attorney's general

1170
00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:46,480
and they did this behind closed doors

1171
00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:48,240
first they would go out into the public

1172
00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:49,599
and they would grab the mic and say

1173
00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:51,760
we're doing this for the victims we're

1174
00:44:55,589 --> 00:44:53,680
taking all the money we're going to make

1175
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:55,599
sure that the sacklers get what's coming

1176
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:56,480
to them

1177
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:58,160
we're doing this for the families we're

1178
00:45:03,829 --> 00:45:00,560
doing this for accountability and behind

1179
00:45:07,910 --> 00:45:03,839
closed doors though in negotiations

1180
00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:07,920
they did every single thing possible to

1181
00:45:11,349 --> 00:45:10,319
keep money away from victims that they

1182
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:11,359
could

1183
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:14,400
i sat in mediation sessions during the

1184
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:16,480
settlement negotiations

1185
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:19,040
where the deputy attorney general for

1186
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:20,960
the state of new york who was leading

1187
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:22,640
those negotiations and i'll name his

1188
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:24,880
name david nachman

1189
00:45:29,990 --> 00:45:27,599
actually said to us that victims

1190
00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:30,000
deserved nothing

1191
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:32,240
we deserve nothing because we did this

1192
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:34,160
to ourselves

1193
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:36,079
and that the state

1194
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:39,040
bore all the burden of the overdose

1195
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:41,040
crisis because they're the ones that had

1196
00:45:44,550 --> 00:45:42,800
to pay for the police they're the ones

1197
00:45:46,150 --> 00:45:44,560
that had to pay for the health care

1198
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:46,160
they're the ones who had to pay for the

1199
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:49,200
societal costs that purdue brought on to

1200
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:52,079
these communities and completely

1201
00:45:56,550 --> 00:45:54,240
just sidestepped the death and

1202
00:45:58,309 --> 00:45:56,560
destruction to our personal lives

1203
00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:58,319
and they had a

1204
00:46:03,990 --> 00:46:00,400
argument an actual theory

1205
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:04,000
that victims should get zero dollars

1206
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:06,720
because we did this to ourselves

1207
00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:09,359
now the outcome of the settlement as it

1208
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:11,599
stands right now and it is on appeal

1209
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,599
right in the second circuit

1210
00:46:17,430 --> 00:46:15,599
you know it's about a 10 billion dollar

1211
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:17,440
plan and that includes four and a half

1212
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:19,119
billion dollars from the sacklers and

1213
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:22,000
their substantial contribution

1214
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:25,680
97 and a half percent of that settlement

1215
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:27,040
as it stands

1216
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:28,960
goes to the government

1217
00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:31,280
and goes to corporations

1218
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:32,960
seven and a half percent of the

1219
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:34,240
settlement

1220
00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:36,880
goes to individual victims

1221
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:39,200
the payouts for individual victims range

1222
00:46:43,349 --> 00:46:41,280
from 3 500

1223
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:43,359
to 48 000

1224
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:46,000
max if you can prove

1225
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:47,280
you lost

1226
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:50,000
someone close to you from an overdose

1227
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:53,040
directly caused by a purdue product for

1228
00:46:57,510 --> 00:46:54,480
comparison

1229
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:57,520
there was a car manufacturer bankruptcy

1230
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:59,280
a few years ago

1231
00:47:03,190 --> 00:47:00,319
where

1232
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,200
creditors who were in people who were

1233
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:06,000
harmed by the seat belts in these cars

1234
00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:08,560
who filed claims in the bankruptcy who

1235
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:11,040
had as much of a bruise on their left

1236
00:47:16,950 --> 00:47:14,319
arm from these faulty seat belts

1237
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:16,960
received more money than a mother will

1238
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:18,480
who lost her

1239
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:19,760
child

1240
00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:23,040
to an overdose by a purdue product

1241
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:25,760
it's a scam it's a crime

1242
00:47:30,309 --> 00:47:28,400
these attorneys general

1243
00:47:31,910 --> 00:47:30,319
i believe at their heart

1244
00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:31,920
you know we've got to think like who is

1245
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:34,400
their clients right their clients the

1246
00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:36,880
state their clients the state treasury

1247
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:38,400
when you hear an attorney general go out

1248
00:47:42,230 --> 00:47:39,839
there and say they're doing this for the

1249
00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:42,240
victims they're lying they're full of

1250
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:43,520
crap

1251
00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:45,119
i have plenty of evidence that i've

1252
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:46,960
documented within the book that shows

1253
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:49,599
that they are completely full of crap

1254
00:47:54,630 --> 00:47:52,559
the abatement dollars you know we try to

1255
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:54,640
get involved in conversations and when

1256
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,160
you talk about abatement that's

1257
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:58,240
preventing future harm how are they

1258
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:59,839
going to use these dollars are they

1259
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,200
going to go to community-based

1260
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:03,680
organizations are they going to go to

1261
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,400
provide evidence-based recovery supports

1262
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:07,920
that we know that work are they going to

1263
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,800
go to support harm reduction

1264
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:12,880
and we were told left and right like we

1265
00:48:16,309 --> 00:48:14,559
have no business in those discussions

1266
00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:16,319
the state's going to decide how to spend

1267
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:17,520
this money and we're just going to have

1268
00:48:22,069 --> 00:48:19,839
to deal with it

1269
00:48:24,150 --> 00:48:22,079
angering because that myth is still

1270
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:24,160
perpetrated today by some of these

1271
00:48:28,150 --> 00:48:26,160
attorneys general you see some of them

1272
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:28,160
on television talking about it and it's

1273
00:48:33,589 --> 00:48:30,880
enough to make my blood boil i just had

1274
00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:33,599
an action last week against the attorney

1275
00:48:37,349 --> 00:48:35,359
general of connecticut

1276
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:37,359
william tong because he keeps saying

1277
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:38,480
we're going to keep fighting the

1278
00:48:42,309 --> 00:48:40,480
sacklers for more money

1279
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:42,319
and we're going to hold them accountable

1280
00:48:47,430 --> 00:48:44,720
and what we really want are criminal

1281
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:47,440
charges right so like all of the victims

1282
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,559
in this case

1283
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:51,040
and victims who have been harmed by the

1284
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:54,000
sacklers we want criminal charges we

1285
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:55,760
want the united states department of

1286
00:49:01,030 --> 00:48:58,720
justice or at least one of these 50

1287
00:49:03,670 --> 00:49:01,040
attorney generals who claim such

1288
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:03,680
egregious crimes by peru pharma to put

1289
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:05,920
their money where their mouth is and

1290
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:08,240
make the sacklers sit for a grand jury

1291
00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:10,880
indict them criminally investigate them

1292
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:14,800
no you know what not one single state in

1293
00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:16,480
this country

1294
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:19,200
has filed a criminal charge against any

1295
00:49:24,230 --> 00:49:21,359
member of the sackler family because

1296
00:49:26,710 --> 00:49:24,240
this is all about money this is not

1297
00:49:28,309 --> 00:49:26,720
about real justice and so when we hear

1298
00:49:30,309 --> 00:49:28,319
an attorney general talking about

1299
00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:30,319
holding the sackler family accountable

1300
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:32,240
that is not what they're doing all they

1301
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:34,160
are doing is trying to get more money

1302
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:36,960
but money for who money for their state

1303
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:39,200
because they have pushed us aside they

1304
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:42,000
have chewed us up they have spit us out

1305
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:44,480
and they have discarded the victims when

1306
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:47,520
every single one of their claims

1307
00:49:51,430 --> 00:49:49,440
wouldn't even exist

1308
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:51,440
without the victim's claims every

1309
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:54,000
government claim every insurance company

1310
00:49:58,950 --> 00:49:56,640
claim every corporation claim in this

1311
00:50:01,270 --> 00:49:58,960
bankruptcy wouldn't exist if it wasn't

1312
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:01,280
for the death and the destruction

1313
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:03,440
of families and individuals who have

1314
00:50:07,990 --> 00:50:05,680
carried the burden of purdue's crimes

1315
00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:08,000
for far too long and the injustice just

1316
00:50:14,150 --> 00:50:11,359
continues and mainstream media will not

1317
00:50:15,910 --> 00:50:14,160
give that subject the air time they do

1318
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:15,920
not want to talk about it it is one of

1319
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:18,160
the most frustrating narratives coming

1320
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:19,680
out of writing unsettled and

1321
00:50:26,150 --> 00:50:23,680
participating in this process

1322
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:26,160
man well i'm glad you broke that down it

1323
00:50:31,430 --> 00:50:28,559
is important for people to know these

1324
00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:31,440
state ags they're just trying to capture

1325
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:33,040
that money put it in the budget there's

1326
00:50:36,390 --> 00:50:34,559
no guarantee it'll go where it's

1327
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:36,400
supposed to go at all they kind of can

1328
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:38,160
just do whatever they want with it i've

1329
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:40,079
heard you talk about that before yeah i

1330
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:41,440
mean and they say they're gonna do the

1331
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:42,880
right thing with it they say they're

1332
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:44,880
gonna spend it on abatement

1333
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:47,280
but there's no real mechanism

1334
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:48,880
that guarantees

1335
00:50:52,390 --> 00:50:50,880
how for them to spend the dollars i mean

1336
00:50:53,910 --> 00:50:52,400
they've been so broad they're like yes

1337
00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:53,920
we'll spend it on prevention yes we'll

1338
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:55,520
spend it on treatment yes we'll spend it

1339
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:58,000
on law enforcement but like 99 of it

1340
00:51:01,430 --> 00:50:59,599
could go to law enforcement right on

1341
00:51:03,589 --> 00:51:01,440
like body cams and stuff and they can

1342
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:03,599
claim it for the opioid crisis part of

1343
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:04,720
the problem here is the lack of

1344
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,280
transparency like good luck trying to go

1345
00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:09,280
track down how a state's spending their

1346
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:11,440
abatement dollars i've tried it like if

1347
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:14,000
you don't have two phds and like a

1348
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:15,920
reading room of five people who can go

1349
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:16,720
through

1350
00:51:21,109 --> 00:51:18,720
tens of thousands of pages of documents

1351
00:51:22,309 --> 00:51:21,119
and understand government coding you're

1352
00:51:24,549 --> 00:51:22,319
not going to be able to figure out how

1353
00:51:26,710 --> 00:51:24,559
these dollars are spent there's no real

1354
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:26,720
easy way to break it down you know we

1355
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:28,240
saw this happen with the tobacco

1356
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:30,960
settlements right some time ago it's my

1357
00:51:35,589 --> 00:51:34,319
firm belief that the opioid abatement

1358
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:35,599
dollars is going to be more of a

1359
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:38,400
catastrophic failure than how the

1360
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:40,880
tobacco dollars went down and not to

1361
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:42,880
mention greg like one of the things i i

1362
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,160
haven't really

1363
00:51:47,829 --> 00:51:46,079
been able to talk about are the lawyers

1364
00:51:49,750 --> 00:51:47,839
in this yes like at the end of the day

1365
00:51:50,549 --> 00:51:49,760
the only ones getting rich are the

1366
00:51:52,630 --> 00:51:50,559
lawyers

1367
00:51:55,030 --> 00:51:52,640
i didn't realize that going into the

1368
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:55,040
process i have a whole chapter about it

1369
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:56,720
and unsettled

1370
00:52:02,069 --> 00:51:59,920
under 1 000 lawyers in the purdue form

1371
00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:02,079
of bankruptcy will collectively take

1372
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:04,480
home after contingency fees and

1373
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:08,160
professional fees over 1.3 billion

1374
00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:10,319
dollars this includes contingency

1375
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:12,319
lawyers that work for the states this

1376
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:14,160
includes contingency lawyers that work

1377
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:15,599
and professional lawyers that are

1378
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:18,480
fee-based hourly lawyers that work for

1379
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:20,720
purdue and that work for the creditors

1380
00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:21,920
committee and that work for different

1381
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:23,280
creditor groups

1382
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:27,040
under a thousand over 1.3 billion

1383
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:29,839
dollars to the billionaire millionaire

1384
00:52:36,309 --> 00:52:34,160
class out of this bankruptcy yet 138

1385
00:52:38,790 --> 00:52:36,319
000 victims

1386
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:38,800
will have to share in 750 million

1387
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:41,280
dollars now tell me the system isn't set

1388
00:52:46,069 --> 00:52:43,359
up for us to get screwed under those

1389
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:46,079
calculations oh yes i'm glad you made

1390
00:52:51,030 --> 00:52:48,640
the point about the lawyers it's just a

1391
00:52:52,950 --> 00:52:51,040
whole big show victims get the shaft and

1392
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:52,960
the criminals just get to cut a check

1393
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:54,800
and i've also heard you say that the way

1394
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:57,200
the settlement is structured

1395
00:53:01,829 --> 00:52:59,359
is so to the sackler's benefit they

1396
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:01,839
might actually make more money over this

1397
00:53:05,990 --> 00:53:03,520
time is that right

1398
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:06,000
yes that's absolutely correct

1399
00:53:10,069 --> 00:53:07,440
right now

1400
00:53:12,549 --> 00:53:10,079
even if this deal goes through and the

1401
00:53:15,510 --> 00:53:12,559
appellate court holds it up

1402
00:53:17,829 --> 00:53:15,520
they will contribute 4.5 billion dollars

1403
00:53:19,750 --> 00:53:17,839
over 10 years and chunks couple hundred

1404
00:53:20,790 --> 00:53:19,760
million dollars each year

1405
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:20,800
and

1406
00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:22,800
the estimates right now are there worth

1407
00:53:27,190 --> 00:53:25,119
about 11 you know 10 to 11 billion

1408
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:27,200
dollars as a family

1409
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:31,040
and at the end of 10 years with just the

1410
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:33,040
dollars that they have in investments

1411
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:33,760
and

1412
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:37,760
rate on those investments

1413
00:53:43,430 --> 00:53:39,839
their worth would go up to 16 billion

1414
00:53:44,950 --> 00:53:43,440
dollars which means after paying back

1415
00:53:47,109 --> 00:53:44,960
the four and a half billion dollar

1416
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:47,119
settlement they may net a billion to two

1417
00:53:50,390 --> 00:53:48,720
billion dollars if they never worked

1418
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:50,400
another day in their life

1419
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:51,920
i mean it's insane

1420
00:53:56,710 --> 00:53:54,240
yeah it really is man

1421
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:56,720
and so as we're kind of coming to the

1422
00:54:01,510 --> 00:53:59,040
end of the line if we know addicts who

1423
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:01,520
are suffering with exactly these kinds

1424
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:03,440
of issues and we don't know what to do

1425
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,520
how would you advise us to help the

1426
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:07,920
right way because in my experience

1427
00:54:12,069 --> 00:54:09,760
they don't want to listen there's a lot

1428
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:12,079
of denial and hostility when you try to

1429
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:14,000
broach the topic but you can see they're

1430
00:54:18,549 --> 00:54:17,119
on a road to ruin so what do we do

1431
00:54:21,670 --> 00:54:18,559
oh

1432
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:21,680
one of my favorite questions greg

1433
00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:22,960
you know

1434
00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:25,200
with people who are struggling from

1435
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:28,319
addiction i would just say

1436
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:32,240
coerced help and coerced treatment will

1437
00:54:35,430 --> 00:54:33,599
never work

1438
00:54:37,510 --> 00:54:35,440
okay

1439
00:54:39,430 --> 00:54:37,520
if they're in your family if it's

1440
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:39,440
someone in your family it is important

1441
00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:41,040
to have boundaries

1442
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:43,440
with them

1443
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:45,359
because it can be devastating to you and

1444
00:54:50,069 --> 00:54:47,200
it can be devastating to those around

1445
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:50,079
you but it is important to always

1446
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,400
if it's a loved one to love them and to

1447
00:54:56,150 --> 00:54:54,400
listen to them you know i

1448
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:56,160
was that guy

1449
00:54:59,589 --> 00:54:57,359
that

1450
00:55:00,710 --> 00:54:59,599
people told my mother never to take my

1451
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,720
phone call

1452
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:02,720
that they would find me dead in a ditch

1453
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:04,400
somewhere

1454
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:07,599
if she helped me or was too nice to me

1455
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:10,160
that i was just gonna steal from her

1456
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:12,240
and stuff like that and honestly i

1457
00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:14,400
didn't want help most of the time i

1458
00:55:17,990 --> 00:55:16,240
wanted to keep using i didn't know any

1459
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:18,000
other way my brain was completely

1460
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:21,119
hijacked but there comes a point

1461
00:55:26,309 --> 00:55:23,440
and there came a point with me where i

1462
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:26,319
did need help and my mom answered

1463
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:27,440
my phone

1464
00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:29,839
and someday she would just listen to me

1465
00:55:32,789 --> 00:55:31,359
you know and she would encourage me to

1466
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:32,799
get help

1467
00:55:37,829 --> 00:55:34,559
she wouldn't force me but she encouraged

1468
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:37,839
me and if you have someone that you know

1469
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,680
more importantly is if you think they

1470
00:55:43,990 --> 00:55:41,839
are struggling

1471
00:55:46,230 --> 00:55:44,000
ask them if they're okay

1472
00:55:47,030 --> 00:55:46,240
ask them if they would like to get some

1473
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:47,040
help

1474
00:55:50,470 --> 00:55:48,720
you know be open to having a

1475
00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:50,480
conversation with them

1476
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:52,480
and they may say no

1477
00:55:56,549 --> 00:55:54,400
but have healthy boundaries with them

1478
00:55:57,829 --> 00:55:56,559
but healthy boundaries means not just

1479
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:57,839
shutting them out of your life

1480
00:56:03,270 --> 00:56:00,400
completely because the next step may be

1481
00:56:06,230 --> 00:56:03,280
they end up dead and

1482
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:06,240
i think for a lot of us who go through

1483
00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:08,000
severe substance use disorder and

1484
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:09,520
addiction issues

1485
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:11,680
beyond the drug what we're all really

1486
00:56:15,430 --> 00:56:13,200
trying to

1487
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,440
grasp a hold to is something that we're

1488
00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:17,599
missing in our human lives right

1489
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:19,119
something that we're missing deep down

1490
00:56:23,750 --> 00:56:21,200
inside and for a lot of us it's a lot of

1491
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:23,760
trauma that may have existed for quite

1492
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:25,440
some time

1493
00:56:29,109 --> 00:56:27,359
it can be very hard

1494
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:29,119
to love a loved one

1495
00:56:33,670 --> 00:56:30,960
who's going through this particularly if

1496
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:33,680
they've harmed you somehow

1497
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:35,760
not knowing everybody's unique

1498
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:37,440
circumstances

1499
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:39,119
have some healthy boundaries but don't

1500
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:41,520
shut them out of your life and there are

1501
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:43,920
resources available out there right like

1502
00:56:48,230 --> 00:56:46,640
if someone's on medicaid has insurance

1503
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:48,240
doesn't have insurance

1504
00:56:51,190 --> 00:56:49,920
the federal government has a treatment

1505
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:51,200
locator

1506
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:54,079
called findtreatment.gov

1507
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:56,720
folks can reach out to me on my website

1508
00:57:01,430 --> 00:56:58,559
you know i'm always happy to have just a

1509
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:01,440
conversation with someone i don't refer

1510
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:03,200
anywhere or anything like that but i'm

1511
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:05,200
happy to offer my lived experience

1512
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:07,440
there's a great model called recovery

1513
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:09,040
community organizations they're

1514
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:11,200
non-profits that exist in many towns

1515
00:57:14,549 --> 00:57:12,640
across the country

1516
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:14,559
called rcos where they offer peer

1517
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:16,880
recovery support services

1518
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:18,799
where it's a peer with lived experience

1519
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:21,119
such as you know someone like me

1520
00:57:24,789 --> 00:57:22,640
who's been through this

1521
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:24,799
who can help that loved one kind of

1522
00:57:28,630 --> 00:57:26,880
navigate what their options are and kind

1523
00:57:29,589 --> 00:57:28,640
of try to take that burden off the

1524
00:57:31,670 --> 00:57:29,599
family

1525
00:57:33,829 --> 00:57:31,680
it's also incredibly important that if

1526
00:57:35,510 --> 00:57:33,839
you're a family member

1527
00:57:37,990 --> 00:57:35,520
that has a loved one struggling that you

1528
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:38,000
get help too you know because it affects

1529
00:57:41,750 --> 00:57:39,920
everybody there are resources for

1530
00:57:44,069 --> 00:57:41,760
families out there and it is just as

1531
00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:44,079
important for families to talk to a peer

1532
00:57:49,109 --> 00:57:46,319
specialist as it is for the person who's

1533
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:49,119
struggling because it has an entire

1534
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,040
impact and ripple effect

1535
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:53,040
both in active addiction and even in

1536
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:56,000
recovery with the family dynamics

1537
00:57:59,510 --> 00:57:57,359
right on

1538
00:58:02,710 --> 00:57:59,520
yes i also wanted to mention you blogged

1539
00:58:05,910 --> 00:58:02,720
about the mobilize recovery event the

1540
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:05,920
third annual conference for recovery

1541
00:58:10,309 --> 00:58:08,240
advocates and uh they have a broader

1542
00:58:12,870 --> 00:58:10,319
vision for recovery and i know you have

1543
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:12,880
the non-profit facing addiction and you

1544
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:14,640
work with the not facing addiction it's

1545
00:58:18,230 --> 00:58:16,640
uh the nonprofit's the voices project

1546
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:18,240
it's called the voices project right on

1547
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:20,400
and then there's recovery advocacy

1548
00:58:25,829 --> 00:58:23,040
project yep the terms and words get a

1549
00:58:27,829 --> 00:58:25,839
little um redundant and confusing but in

1550
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:27,839
terms of the organizations that you

1551
00:58:31,670 --> 00:58:29,760
endorse that you're involved with and

1552
00:58:33,910 --> 00:58:31,680
their approaches to these things that

1553
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:33,920
you think are doing it the right way

1554
00:58:38,870 --> 00:58:36,480
what should we leave people with listen

1555
00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:38,880
i take a little different approach on

1556
00:58:43,990 --> 00:58:41,680
this i believe that we know what works

1557
00:58:46,069 --> 00:58:44,000
we know what we need to do i set out

1558
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:46,079
that agenda earlier to you that's just

1559
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:48,160
kind of a peak behind the curtain of all

1560
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:50,160
the things we need to be looking at what

1561
00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:53,200
we're missing is a vocal

1562
00:58:58,630 --> 00:58:56,000
you know active community

1563
00:59:00,630 --> 00:58:58,640
that's holding policy makers accountable

1564
00:59:02,230 --> 00:59:00,640
and an effective constituency of

1565
00:59:04,069 --> 00:59:02,240
consequence because i believe our

1566
00:59:05,829 --> 00:59:04,079
elected officials need to start

1567
00:59:07,990 --> 00:59:05,839
answering some really hard questions as

1568
00:59:09,750 --> 00:59:08,000
to how we got here and why things aren't

1569
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:09,760
getting better when we know what to do

1570
00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:12,799
so our entire model at mobilize recovery

1571
00:59:16,390 --> 00:59:14,559
at the voices project

1572
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:16,400
and recovery advocacy project is about

1573
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:18,720
building people with lived experience

1574
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:20,640
family members people impacted by

1575
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:23,040
addiction people in recovery you know

1576
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:25,520
giving them the skills to organize their

1577
00:59:30,950 --> 00:59:28,240
communities locally for new policies but

1578
00:59:32,950 --> 00:59:30,960
also to kind of call bs on a lot of

1579
00:59:35,190 --> 00:59:32,960
these legislators and members of

1580
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:35,200
congress and governors and folks in

1581
00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:37,920
powerful decision-making authorities who

1582
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:39,839
say they care about ending the overdose

1583
00:59:43,270 --> 00:59:41,839
crisis but aren't really doing much to

1584
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,280
do it so

1585
00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:45,119
i believe we need a little bit more of a

1586
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:47,680
robust civic engagement model if we're

1587
00:59:52,309 --> 00:59:50,160
ever to really get more action similar

1588
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:52,319
to what we saw with act up during the

1589
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:54,880
aids crisis and other healthcare issues

1590
00:59:58,950 --> 00:59:57,200
in this country

1591
01:00:01,030 --> 00:59:58,960
yeah i've heard there are three

1592
01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:01,040
pharmaceutical lobbyists for every

1593
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:03,359
member of congress and of course they

1594
01:00:06,710 --> 01:00:05,200
will just keep doing whatever they're

1595
01:00:09,349 --> 01:00:06,720
doing to make that money and they'll

1596
01:00:11,430 --> 01:00:09,359
sweep all the dirty stuff under the rug

1597
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:11,440
as long as they can so the pressure is

1598
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:14,400
very important as you say absolutely and

1599
01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:16,799
your website is ryanhampton.com you got

1600
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:18,960
the blog you got other resources there

1601
01:00:22,470 --> 01:00:21,280
for people so that's probably important

1602
01:00:24,549 --> 01:00:22,480
and uh

1603
01:00:26,950 --> 01:00:24,559
man just thanks for doing the work you

1604
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:26,960
do and for talking to me today it can't

1605
01:00:32,069 --> 01:00:30,160
be easy to have to work in the realm of

1606
01:00:33,750 --> 01:00:32,079
all this after you dealt with it

1607
01:00:35,589 --> 01:00:33,760
yourself you constantly are being

1608
01:00:37,430 --> 01:00:35,599
reminded of it so

1609
01:00:39,430 --> 01:00:37,440
i imagine that's very difficult but

1610
01:00:41,030 --> 01:00:39,440
you're doing amazing work in the world

1611
01:00:46,470 --> 01:00:41,040
and that's a beautiful thing and take

1612
01:00:51,270 --> 01:00:48,710
and boom goes the dynamite people

1613
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:51,280
beating the drum of an issue we all know

1614
01:00:55,510 --> 01:00:53,280
is there but thc has never really

1615
01:00:57,430 --> 01:00:55,520
dedicated an episode to it and it's

1616
01:00:59,109 --> 01:00:57,440
probably long overdue

1617
01:01:03,109 --> 01:00:59,119
i mean just listen to those statistics

1618
01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:03,119
again 400 000 have died since 1999

1619
01:01:07,589 --> 01:01:05,920
a hundred thousand in the last 12 months

1620
01:01:10,069 --> 01:01:07,599
for the first time

1621
01:01:13,190 --> 01:01:10,079
even that ratio seems weird i bet it's a

1622
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:13,200
lot more than 400 000 since 1999 if a

1623
01:01:16,390 --> 01:01:14,559
hundred thousand have died in the last

1624
01:01:18,710 --> 01:01:16,400
12 months but i'm just the messenger

1625
01:01:20,789 --> 01:01:18,720
reading statistics

1626
01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:20,799
one in three american households

1627
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:22,640
affected in some way

1628
01:01:27,990 --> 01:01:25,520
and from april 2020 to april 2021

1629
01:01:31,270 --> 01:01:28,000
fentanyl claimed the lives of 40 000

1630
01:01:33,109 --> 01:01:31,280
americans aged 18 to 45 to make it the

1631
01:01:34,069 --> 01:01:33,119
leading cause of death for that age

1632
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:34,079
group

1633
01:01:40,870 --> 01:01:36,160
and to put that number in perspective

1634
01:01:45,030 --> 01:01:40,880
car accidents 22 000 suicide 21 000

1635
01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:45,040
covid 21 000 and cancer 17 000. so you

1636
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:47,440
could basically put car accidents and

1637
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:49,599
covet together and you'd get the number

1638
01:01:55,270 --> 01:01:52,480
of deaths from fentanyl alone and that's

1639
01:01:57,109 --> 01:01:55,280
not even the topic of the day

1640
01:01:59,270 --> 01:01:57,119
it's messed up this is an issue where

1641
01:02:00,789 --> 01:01:59,280
there's a lot of judgment and an

1642
01:02:02,150 --> 01:02:00,799
assumption that it could never happen to

1643
01:02:03,990 --> 01:02:02,160
you

1644
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:04,000
kind of like factory workers who lose

1645
01:02:07,829 --> 01:02:05,680
their job i've heard a lot of people say

1646
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:07,839
well you shouldn't depend on one factory

1647
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:11,200
to make your living or to prop up a town

1648
01:02:14,710 --> 01:02:12,960
and that's easy to say when you didn't

1649
01:02:16,950 --> 01:02:14,720
grow up in detroit

1650
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:16,960
and this is similar in that if you don't

1651
01:02:21,029 --> 01:02:19,200
live with pain if you don't have a car

1652
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:21,039
accident that breaks a dozen of your

1653
01:02:25,109 --> 01:02:23,200
bones it's easy to judge people who get

1654
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:25,119
caught up in this and just look down on

1655
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:25,920
them

1656
01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:27,839
but in so many areas of life

1657
01:02:32,309 --> 01:02:29,760
corporations have figured out how to

1658
01:02:34,309 --> 01:02:32,319
hijack systems of the body

1659
01:02:36,390 --> 01:02:34,319
look at aspartame and sugar and

1660
01:02:38,630 --> 01:02:36,400
processed foods in general

1661
01:02:41,109 --> 01:02:38,640
i guess we can judge the obese too and

1662
01:02:42,870 --> 01:02:41,119
say well stop eating hostess cupcakes

1663
01:02:45,910 --> 01:02:42,880
and cheetos

1664
01:02:48,150 --> 01:02:45,920
and that's true but we should also throw

1665
01:02:49,589 --> 01:02:48,160
equal shade at the creators of these

1666
01:02:51,910 --> 01:02:49,599
things

1667
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:51,920
because why should every aspect of life

1668
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:54,000
end up being a battle between our

1669
01:02:59,270 --> 01:02:57,440
willpower and our biological circuitry

1670
01:03:01,029 --> 01:02:59,280
shouldn't there be some responsibility

1671
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:01,039
for the makers of manipulative and

1672
01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:03,760
addicting products i say so

1673
01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:05,760
i watched a food science documentary

1674
01:03:09,670 --> 01:03:08,160
once and they asked leaders in the field

1675
01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:09,680
what they thought was the crowning

1676
01:03:13,670 --> 01:03:12,400
achievement and they said the cheeto

1677
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:13,680
puff

1678
01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:15,039
which stuck with me because it was so

1679
01:03:19,270 --> 01:03:17,039
surprising but it's because nothing in

1680
01:03:21,349 --> 01:03:19,280
it is real and they engineered it to

1681
01:03:23,589 --> 01:03:21,359
have an attractive color

1682
01:03:26,069 --> 01:03:23,599
to kind of melt in your mouth in a

1683
01:03:28,309 --> 01:03:26,079
satisfying way and to leave the cheeto

1684
01:03:29,589 --> 01:03:28,319
dust on your fingers tempting you to eat

1685
01:03:31,990 --> 01:03:29,599
more

1686
01:03:33,990 --> 01:03:32,000
all of these things have a little effect

1687
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:34,000
that builds up into

1688
01:03:38,950 --> 01:03:36,400
people not being able to stop

1689
01:03:41,109 --> 01:03:38,960
the cheeto i mean it's mundane and yet

1690
01:03:43,190 --> 01:03:41,119
pretty insidious and that's basically

1691
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:43,200
every food product

1692
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:47,440
plus video games social media cigarettes

1693
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,200
everywhere you look there's a witch

1694
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:51,839
offering you a poison apple and big

1695
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:53,599
pharma and opioids are probably the

1696
01:03:57,430 --> 01:03:55,280
scariest one

1697
01:03:59,750 --> 01:03:57,440
so i thank ryan for doing this and being

1698
01:04:02,630 --> 01:03:59,760
able to talk so eloquently from a

1699
01:04:04,710 --> 01:04:02,640
personal and professional perspective

1700
01:04:07,109 --> 01:04:04,720
i like him a lot and i appreciate his

1701
01:04:08,470 --> 01:04:07,119
story and how he turned it around

1702
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:08,480
and i know you guys are going to beat me

1703
01:04:13,589 --> 01:04:10,480
up if i don't say something about it but

1704
01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:13,599
yes he is still a bit optimistic about

1705
01:04:18,230 --> 01:04:16,079
intentions of government and big pharma

1706
01:04:19,750 --> 01:04:18,240
in areas that aren't the opioid crisis

1707
01:04:22,230 --> 01:04:19,760
specifically

1708
01:04:24,950 --> 01:04:22,240
and we all know i'm not as optimistic or

1709
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:24,960
trusting in any of those other areas but

1710
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:26,799
to each their own that wasn't even the

1711
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:28,799
theme of this episode

1712
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:30,960
i have to say ryan is a good sport

1713
01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:32,720
though because i made the decision that

1714
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:35,119
we needed an opioid crisis episode and i

1715
01:04:40,230 --> 01:04:38,079
sent out a few emails to the top dogs

1716
01:04:41,670 --> 01:04:40,240
and not only did he get back to me first

1717
01:04:43,829 --> 01:04:41,680
but he also

1718
01:04:45,670 --> 01:04:43,839
does focus on the billionaire family at

1719
01:04:47,270 --> 01:04:45,680
the head of this thing which we value

1720
01:04:49,670 --> 01:04:47,280
quite a bit of course

1721
01:04:51,670 --> 01:04:49,680
but he also told me he listened to a few

1722
01:04:52,630 --> 01:04:51,680
episodes and was still willing to come

1723
01:04:54,309 --> 01:04:52,640
on

1724
01:04:56,549 --> 01:04:54,319
which i always think is a big deal

1725
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:56,559
because who knows what those episodes

1726
01:05:00,630 --> 01:04:58,319
were and whatever it was that he

1727
01:05:02,789 --> 01:05:00,640
listened to but it didn't turn him off

1728
01:05:04,470 --> 01:05:02,799
at least not enough to reject my

1729
01:05:06,549 --> 01:05:04,480
interview request

1730
01:05:08,950 --> 01:05:06,559
and with it being such a serious and

1731
01:05:11,190 --> 01:05:08,960
personal issue i could see him seeing

1732
01:05:13,349 --> 01:05:11,200
our show as a little silly

1733
01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:13,359
oh the higher side chats wants to talk

1734
01:05:18,710 --> 01:05:16,079
about drug addiction

1735
01:05:21,109 --> 01:05:18,720
so kudos to him for trusting me to take

1736
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:21,119
the issue seriously

1737
01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:22,640
i also thought he made a really good

1738
01:05:27,109 --> 01:05:24,799
point about nerfing the numbers a bit

1739
01:05:29,109 --> 01:05:27,119
for how bad this really is by putting

1740
01:05:31,349 --> 01:05:29,119
down a different cause of death like

1741
01:05:32,710 --> 01:05:31,359
heart failure or asphyxiation or

1742
01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:32,720
something that doesn't specifically

1743
01:05:36,069 --> 01:05:34,480
mention an overdose

1744
01:05:38,549 --> 01:05:36,079
and hey why wouldn't the medical

1745
01:05:40,789 --> 01:05:38,559
establishment work that way we've had

1746
01:05:43,109 --> 01:05:40,799
several guests break down how they pad

1747
01:05:45,430 --> 01:05:43,119
covid numbers as a component of this

1748
01:05:47,029 --> 01:05:45,440
full court press we're experiencing

1749
01:05:49,349 --> 01:05:47,039
and we're talking about two different

1750
01:05:50,789 --> 01:05:49,359
issues but within the same system with

1751
01:05:53,029 --> 01:05:50,799
different incentives and different

1752
01:05:54,549 --> 01:05:53,039
desires when it comes to perception

1753
01:05:57,270 --> 01:05:54,559
management

1754
01:05:59,670 --> 01:05:57,280
and i will admit i probably do drift

1755
01:06:01,750 --> 01:05:59,680
into being a bit cold towards those

1756
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:01,760
struggling with addiction an example

1757
01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:04,480
would be jordan peterson i don't know if

1758
01:06:08,150 --> 01:06:06,559
it's straight up addiction but i learned

1759
01:06:09,990 --> 01:06:08,160
a lot from jordan peterson over the

1760
01:06:11,670 --> 01:06:10,000
years i found him to be a compelling

1761
01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:11,680
thoughtful speaker on a number of

1762
01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:14,160
subjects not everything of course

1763
01:06:18,789 --> 01:06:16,720
but when he started taking ssris and had

1764
01:06:20,710 --> 01:06:18,799
this downward spiral and his life

1765
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:20,720
completely upended

1766
01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:22,799
i was just really disappointed to see

1767
01:06:27,109 --> 01:06:24,880
that because a clinical psychologist

1768
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:27,119
who's kind of gone rogue should know to

1769
01:06:31,109 --> 01:06:29,039
avoid these drugs

1770
01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:31,119
and maybe a clinical psychologist has

1771
01:06:35,349 --> 01:06:33,520
blinders on for the solutions proposed

1772
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:35,359
in their industry

1773
01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:37,200
but i found myself thinking if you

1774
01:06:42,069 --> 01:06:39,520
aren't smart enough to

1775
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:42,079
avoid ssris do you really have anything

1776
01:06:45,109 --> 01:06:43,680
to teach me

1777
01:06:46,870 --> 01:06:45,119
i'm not saying it's right i'm saying

1778
01:06:48,630 --> 01:06:46,880
that's what i thought

1779
01:06:51,670 --> 01:06:48,640
because it's very clear to me you don't

1780
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:51,680
[\h__\h] with ssris or opioids

1781
01:06:56,710 --> 01:06:54,720
if you do well good luck to you

1782
01:06:59,270 --> 01:06:56,720
but i also have no idea what it's like

1783
01:07:01,190 --> 01:06:59,280
to have chronic pain i have no idea what

1784
01:07:03,589 --> 01:07:01,200
it's like to suffer the kind of life

1785
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:03,599
events that send you spiraling into a

1786
01:07:07,910 --> 01:07:05,039
deep depression

1787
01:07:10,069 --> 01:07:07,920
so i try to check myself and remember

1788
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:10,079
that it's easy to avoid these pills when

1789
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:12,160
they're the solutions to problems you

1790
01:07:15,910 --> 01:07:13,599
don't have

1791
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:15,920
i avoid chemotherapy too another

1792
01:07:20,069 --> 01:07:18,160
dangerous practice but i also don't have

1793
01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:20,079
cancer so there's nothing really to be

1794
01:07:23,270 --> 01:07:21,839
proud of there

1795
01:07:26,069 --> 01:07:23,280
when you have one of these serious

1796
01:07:27,829 --> 01:07:26,079
problems and the only experts allowed to

1797
01:07:29,589 --> 01:07:27,839
practice have whittled away and

1798
01:07:32,309 --> 01:07:29,599
suppressed alternatives and given you

1799
01:07:34,789 --> 01:07:32,319
one solitary solution that is extremely

1800
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:34,799
risky for you and they get paid to offer

1801
01:07:39,829 --> 01:07:35,760
it

1802
01:07:42,549 --> 01:07:39,839
and we need to help those who have been

1803
01:07:44,670 --> 01:07:42,559
turned out by it and at one point

1804
01:07:47,349 --> 01:07:44,680
talking about the settlement ryan said

1805
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:47,359
97.5 percent goes to governments and

1806
01:07:50,789 --> 01:07:49,280
corporations and seven percent goes to

1807
01:07:54,150 --> 01:07:50,799
victims

1808
01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:54,160
pretty sure he meant 92.5 percent and 7

1809
01:07:58,870 --> 01:07:56,640
because i know that the seven percent is

1810
01:08:01,510 --> 01:07:58,880
right from reading the book and i think

1811
01:08:04,630 --> 01:08:01,520
he said it correctly later but just to

1812
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:04,640
address that possible confusion

1813
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:06,400
those numbers are still insane and to

1814
01:08:11,109 --> 01:08:08,160
say that the lawyers made a billion it's

1815
01:08:13,190 --> 01:08:11,119
like what the hell and i know people

1816
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:13,200
really don't want to have more covid

1817
01:08:17,430 --> 01:08:14,880
shows but that doesn't stop me from

1818
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:17,440
trying to get a bit creative and in a

1819
01:08:22,229 --> 01:08:19,920
roundabout way make larger points about

1820
01:08:23,910 --> 01:08:22,239
why fda approval doesn't mean [\h__\h] to me

1821
01:08:25,510 --> 01:08:23,920
and why companies like pfizer and

1822
01:08:27,189 --> 01:08:25,520
johnson and johnson

1823
01:08:28,950 --> 01:08:27,199
can't be trusted when they talk about

1824
01:08:30,709 --> 01:08:28,960
their products

1825
01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:30,719
even holistic medicine is hard to

1826
01:08:34,309 --> 01:08:32,480
navigate because for so much of it

1827
01:08:36,829 --> 01:08:34,319
you'll find negative articles that try

1828
01:08:39,749 --> 01:08:36,839
to repeatedly highlight a lack of fda

1829
01:08:41,590 --> 01:08:39,759
approval to make something sound scary

1830
01:08:43,189 --> 01:08:41,600
or extra risky

1831
01:08:45,430 --> 01:08:43,199
and sometimes it is

1832
01:08:47,829 --> 01:08:45,440
but sometimes it isn't

1833
01:08:49,669 --> 01:08:47,839
so i appreciate ryan's work and mission

1834
01:08:51,510 --> 01:08:49,679
i'm sure many of us listening are not

1835
01:08:53,669 --> 01:08:51,520
nearly as dedicated to anything

1836
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:53,679
involving the public good so i salute

1837
01:08:56,630 --> 01:08:54,880
him for it

1838
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:56,640
also i think i took a few lines from

1839
01:09:00,630 --> 01:08:58,960
ryan's bio in previous interviews that

1840
01:09:02,870 --> 01:09:00,640
had the incorrect names of his

1841
01:09:04,630 --> 01:09:02,880
non-profit and organizations that he's

1842
01:09:06,550 --> 01:09:04,640
been involved with or maybe it was just

1843
01:09:07,990 --> 01:09:06,560
an outdated one you know i hate to get

1844
01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:08,000
that stuff wrong

1845
01:09:12,870 --> 01:09:10,239
but the right stuff is the mobilize

1846
01:09:15,669 --> 01:09:12,880
recovery conference the voices project

1847
01:09:18,309 --> 01:09:15,679
that is his non-profit and recovery

1848
01:09:20,550 --> 01:09:18,319
advocacy project is another one that he

1849
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:20,560
supports and is involved with

1850
01:09:24,229 --> 01:09:21,759
obviously

1851
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:24,239
use his website as the portal to reach

1852
01:09:29,749 --> 01:09:27,359
these other things if you have the need

1853
01:09:31,749 --> 01:09:29,759
and i appreciate the solutions he offers

1854
01:09:34,550 --> 01:09:31,759
and i'm completely ignorant of what

1855
01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:34,560
these drugs feel like and what addiction

1856
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:36,480
is like at that level

1857
01:09:40,309 --> 01:09:38,319
but i would probably push back on the

1858
01:09:42,470 --> 01:09:40,319
idea that we don't need to get rid of

1859
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:42,480
these drugs entirely

1860
01:09:46,390 --> 01:09:44,400
i'm sure if we spent more time on that

1861
01:09:47,910 --> 01:09:46,400
ryan could present me with scenarios

1862
01:09:49,189 --> 01:09:47,920
that would lead me to see things

1863
01:09:51,430 --> 01:09:49,199
differently

1864
01:09:53,349 --> 01:09:51,440
but if i had chronic pain

1865
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:53,359
i like to think that i would seek out

1866
01:09:57,510 --> 01:09:55,280
every and all alternative treatment

1867
01:10:00,550 --> 01:09:57,520
before i went to those pills shamans

1868
01:10:02,550 --> 01:10:00,560
dietary changes acupuncture exercise

1869
01:10:03,990 --> 01:10:02,560
bio-field tuning

1870
01:10:06,709 --> 01:10:04,000
we are conditioned to think these

1871
01:10:09,990 --> 01:10:06,719
so-called alternative options are silly

1872
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:10,000
or they only work for low-level issues

1873
01:10:13,430 --> 01:10:11,600
but i've heard some transformative

1874
01:10:16,709 --> 01:10:13,440
things coming from people who work in

1875
01:10:18,390 --> 01:10:16,719
these areas and they don't use the pills

1876
01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:18,400
but life is about nuance and i

1877
01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:20,800
appreciate ryan's ability to say hey

1878
01:10:26,070 --> 01:10:23,360
this stuff turned my life upside down

1879
01:10:28,390 --> 01:10:26,080
the sackler family is evil

1880
01:10:30,709 --> 01:10:28,400
but let's not go scorched earth because

1881
01:10:32,470 --> 01:10:30,719
some people are able to get out of bed

1882
01:10:35,110 --> 01:10:32,480
because of this stuff

1883
01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:35,120
so difficult questions difficult answers

1884
01:10:39,189 --> 01:10:36,880
but i know people who have gone down

1885
01:10:41,669 --> 01:10:39,199
this dark path i receive emails from

1886
01:10:44,149 --> 01:10:41,679
listeners too that say thc helped them

1887
01:10:45,990 --> 01:10:44,159
through an addiction phase the first

1888
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:46,000
time i heard that i was really surprised

1889
01:10:50,470 --> 01:10:48,320
but now i would say it comes up in

1890
01:10:52,390 --> 01:10:50,480
people's correspondence with me maybe a

1891
01:10:54,630 --> 01:10:52,400
dozen times a year

1892
01:10:56,550 --> 01:10:54,640
i wouldn't say anyone super close to me

1893
01:10:58,229 --> 01:10:56,560
has died from

1894
01:11:01,030 --> 01:10:58,239
this kind of stuff it's been on the

1895
01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:01,040
outside edges of my circle

1896
01:11:04,709 --> 01:11:02,880
but there was a dude named brian who i

1897
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:04,719
really liked in high school i thought he

1898
01:11:09,030 --> 01:11:06,960
was a lot of fun i was definitely

1899
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:09,040
jealous of his athletic abilities he was

1900
01:11:12,870 --> 01:11:10,560
charismatic

1901
01:11:15,189 --> 01:11:12,880
having not seen him since

1902
01:11:17,910 --> 01:11:15,199
maybe the high school reunion

1903
01:11:20,310 --> 01:11:17,920
i found out that he ended up

1904
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:20,320
having some kind of injury getting on

1905
01:11:26,630 --> 01:11:23,280
opioids and he died alone

1906
01:11:29,189 --> 01:11:26,640
in the public restroom of the local park

1907
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:29,199
back in arnold missouri and that kind of

1908
01:11:32,070 --> 01:11:31,120
stuck with me just because it's such a

1909
01:11:33,910 --> 01:11:32,080
sad

1910
01:11:37,830 --> 01:11:33,920
way to die

1911
01:11:42,870 --> 01:11:40,149
but after hearing ryan's personal story

1912
01:11:44,550 --> 01:11:42,880
the jump from pills to needles

1913
01:11:47,350 --> 01:11:44,560
i empathize

1914
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:47,360
i always struggled to see how that jump

1915
01:11:51,350 --> 01:11:49,600
was made i never really had it explained

1916
01:11:52,709 --> 01:11:51,360
to me like that but now it seems pretty

1917
01:11:54,229 --> 01:11:52,719
obvious

1918
01:11:55,510 --> 01:11:54,239
even though it's still one hell of a

1919
01:11:56,870 --> 01:11:55,520
leap

1920
01:11:59,830 --> 01:11:56,880
i guess the lesson is there are

1921
01:12:03,350 --> 01:11:59,840
predators in the corner offices of big

1922
01:12:06,630 --> 01:12:03,360
skyrises as well as in the back alleys

1923
01:12:08,470 --> 01:12:06,640
and parking lots of treatment centers

1924
01:12:10,630 --> 01:12:08,480
anyway in the second hour for plus

1925
01:12:12,149 --> 01:12:10,640
people we got into other huge

1926
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:12,159
settlements from pharmaceutical

1927
01:12:16,550 --> 01:12:14,400
companies culpable agencies and

1928
01:12:18,950 --> 01:12:16,560
co-conspirators and all this

1929
01:12:20,630 --> 01:12:18,960
the pr message control elements the

1930
01:12:22,870 --> 01:12:20,640
sacklers used something we see from

1931
01:12:24,390 --> 01:12:22,880
billionaire families all the time

1932
01:12:26,790 --> 01:12:24,400
this i thought was interesting but

1933
01:12:29,110 --> 01:12:26,800
hacking and corrupting ryan's internet

1934
01:12:30,950 --> 01:12:29,120
and email inbox

1935
01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:30,960
now i just started watching the show

1936
01:12:34,870 --> 01:12:33,120
goliath with billy bob thornton and

1937
01:12:36,950 --> 01:12:34,880
right in the pilot episode it shows a

1938
01:12:39,669 --> 01:12:36,960
good example of corporate intimidation

1939
01:12:41,669 --> 01:12:39,679
and surveillance techniques and ryan may

1940
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:41,679
never really know

1941
01:12:46,229 --> 01:12:43,440
but i would speculate that they have the

1942
01:12:47,830 --> 01:12:46,239
power to do the things that he mentioned

1943
01:12:50,950 --> 01:12:47,840
we talked about who else was on that

1944
01:12:53,110 --> 01:12:50,960
committee and why cvs was there

1945
01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:53,120
ryan's right and wrong solutions for the

1946
01:12:57,990 --> 01:12:55,760
opioid crisis how big pharma profits

1947
01:13:00,070 --> 01:12:58,000
from the black market as well

1948
01:13:03,430 --> 01:13:00,080
another great show but the latest season

1949
01:13:05,270 --> 01:13:03,440
of ozark is all about this very nuts

1950
01:13:07,270 --> 01:13:05,280
succession was also mentioned and hey

1951
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:07,280
you add in righteous gemstones and you

1952
01:13:11,590 --> 01:13:10,159
got all my favorite shows right there

1953
01:13:13,910 --> 01:13:11,600
but we also talked about ryan's

1954
01:13:15,910 --> 01:13:13,920
one-on-one meeting with david sackler

1955
01:13:18,390 --> 01:13:15,920
and the general sackler family

1956
01:13:20,149 --> 01:13:18,400
psychology all good stuff thanks to

1957
01:13:22,070 --> 01:13:20,159
those who support the show and hear it

1958
01:13:24,550 --> 01:13:22,080
in its entirety

1959
01:13:26,709 --> 01:13:24,560
in higher side news we did get an event

1960
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:26,719
added to the meetup calendar for next

1961
01:13:32,470 --> 01:13:28,719
weekend it's going to be in louisville

1962
01:13:34,070 --> 01:13:32,480
kentucky at 10 20 craft brewery so

1963
01:13:36,070 --> 01:13:34,080
thanks for adding something so i didn't

1964
01:13:37,510 --> 01:13:36,080
seem like a fool in the wrap up with

1965
01:13:39,510 --> 01:13:37,520
nothing to say

1966
01:13:41,430 --> 01:13:39,520
but we did get some support tickets

1967
01:13:44,310 --> 01:13:41,440
about the meetups calendar so there is

1968
01:13:46,070 --> 01:13:44,320
some confusion that i should clear up

1969
01:13:48,229 --> 01:13:46,080
people tend to think that it's part of

1970
01:13:50,630 --> 01:13:48,239
the thc website that they just can't

1971
01:13:53,110 --> 01:13:50,640
find and it's not it's its own domain at

1972
01:13:54,870 --> 01:13:53,120
highersidemeetups.com

1973
01:13:57,030 --> 01:13:54,880
and i'll do a better job of building

1974
01:13:59,669 --> 01:13:57,040
that bridge but you should know it is

1975
01:14:02,070 --> 01:13:59,679
its own separate thing and plus members

1976
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:02,080
have been confused because when they try

1977
01:14:06,390 --> 01:14:04,159
to log in with their plus account

1978
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:06,400
credentials it doesn't work well that's

1979
01:14:11,189 --> 01:14:09,360
because it's a totally separate website

1980
01:14:13,030 --> 01:14:11,199
i didn't port over the plus member

1981
01:14:15,030 --> 01:14:13,040
database because i don't want to assume

1982
01:14:16,790 --> 01:14:15,040
that all plus members want to be in that

1983
01:14:18,550 --> 01:14:16,800
database or want to create events or

1984
01:14:19,830 --> 01:14:18,560
engage in this way it's just its own

1985
01:14:21,669 --> 01:14:19,840
separate thing

1986
01:14:24,709 --> 01:14:21,679
and plus members have to remember that

1987
01:14:28,070 --> 01:14:24,719
there are tens of thousands of non-plus

1988
01:14:29,910 --> 01:14:28,080
members listening to every show and i

1989
01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:29,920
know another site with another

1990
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:32,000
registration process is annoying but

1991
01:14:35,830 --> 01:14:33,600
it's the only way it works we can't just

1992
01:14:40,390 --> 01:14:35,840
let anyone make events because it'd be

1993
01:14:41,990 --> 01:14:40,400
all spam and bots and untrusted sources

1994
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:42,000
we want to make sure there's at least a

1995
01:14:46,229 --> 01:14:44,159
person and an email attached to every

1996
01:14:48,470 --> 01:14:46,239
event so that there's somebody running

1997
01:14:51,669 --> 01:14:48,480
point if the event needs to change or

1998
01:14:53,149 --> 01:14:51,679
more details need to be given etc etc so

1999
01:14:55,110 --> 01:14:53,159
to make an event you go to

2000
01:14:57,110 --> 01:14:55,120
highersidemeetups.com take a second to

2001
01:14:59,270 --> 01:14:57,120
make an account and then the calendar is

2002
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:59,280
open to you to make events whenever you

2003
01:15:01,590 --> 01:15:00,239
want

2004
01:15:03,830 --> 01:15:01,600
i've mentioned this before but i'm going

2005
01:15:06,070 --> 01:15:03,840
to be road tripping with the family in

2006
01:15:08,790 --> 01:15:06,080
march and i would love to make

2007
01:15:11,669 --> 01:15:08,800
several stops between san diego and

2008
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:11,679
chicago that are thc meetups

2009
01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:13,199
it's nice to see that some of these

2010
01:15:18,070 --> 01:15:15,840
meetups are recurring now and i know

2011
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:18,080
that there's good stable communities

2012
01:15:22,070 --> 01:15:20,400
forming in places so

2013
01:15:23,990 --> 01:15:22,080
those would be areas i'd want to hit and

2014
01:15:26,149 --> 01:15:24,000
there's one more month available to

2015
01:15:27,750 --> 01:15:26,159
start making that happen

2016
01:15:29,510 --> 01:15:27,760
but if you're going out for a few drinks

2017
01:15:31,350 --> 01:15:29,520
with buddies anyway put it on the

2018
01:15:33,669 --> 01:15:31,360
calendar and bring in a few more locals

2019
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:33,679
that you'd probably enjoy meeting

2020
01:15:38,070 --> 01:15:35,679
but i guess in terms of news that's

2021
01:15:40,229 --> 01:15:38,080
really it and i guess no news is good

2022
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:40,239
news as they say just stay in the course

2023
01:15:43,910 --> 01:15:41,679
and trying to bring you entertaining

2024
01:15:45,350 --> 01:15:43,920
informative off the radar important

2025
01:15:47,350 --> 01:15:45,360
episodes

2026
01:15:49,990 --> 01:15:47,360
i hope you're all doing well despite the

2027
01:15:52,550 --> 01:15:50,000
wider concerns out there but that's it

2028
01:15:54,709 --> 01:15:52,560
for me thank ryan if you appreciate his

2029
01:15:56,149 --> 01:15:54,719
time and work as much as i do i'm

2030
01:15:58,630 --> 01:15:56,159
getting out of here

2031
01:16:04,830 --> 01:15:58,640
your move opioid offers addiction

2032
01:16:10,310 --> 01:16:07,990
players the truth has been hidden from

2033
01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:14,149
didn't believe in myself

2034
01:16:24,470 --> 01:16:18,239
got lizard people on top of the world

2035
01:16:32,709 --> 01:16:28,070
believe it or not the truth is out there

2036
01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:32,719
for people who have the eyes to see

2037
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:37,199
my favorite show makes me more aware

2038
01:16:44,570 --> 01:16:41,040
who could it be

2039
01:16:55,510 --> 01:16:44,580
the higher side chess thc

2040
01:17:03,750 --> 01:16:59,830
just watch the tv and obey

2041
01:17:06,630 --> 01:17:03,760
take some more pills when you're blue

2042
01:17:07,910 --> 01:17:06,640
or we'll break you out of the spell that

2043
01:17:14,149 --> 01:17:07,920
you're in

2044
01:17:22,310 --> 01:17:17,750
believe it or not the truth is out there

2045
01:17:26,870 --> 01:17:22,320
for people who have the eyes to see

2046
01:17:30,630 --> 01:17:26,880
my favorite show makes me more aware

2047
01:17:34,870 --> 01:17:30,640
who could it be

2048
01:17:40,149 --> 01:17:34,880
the higher side chat thc

2049
01:17:44,149 --> 01:17:41,660
thc

2050
01:17:45,460 --> 01:17:44,159
[Applause]

2051
01:18:05,910 --> 01:17:45,470
is

2052
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:11,030
believe it or not the truth

2053
01:18:18,550 --> 01:18:14,070
eyes is see

2054
01:18:22,390 --> 01:18:18,560
my favorite show makes me more aware

2055
01:18:25,990 --> 01:18:22,400
who could it be

2056
01:18:29,110 --> 01:18:26,000
the higher side chats believe it or not

2057
01:18:32,709 --> 01:18:29,120
the truth is out there for people who

2058
01:18:37,189 --> 01:18:32,719
have the eyes to see

2059
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:37,199
my favorite show makes me more aware

2060
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:41,040
who could it be

2061
01:18:45,470 --> 01:18:44,570
the higher side chest thc

2062
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:45,480
[Applause]

2063
01:18:59,669 --> 01:18:56,880
[Music]

2064
01:19:01,590 --> 01:18:59,679
and that is another show complete

2065
01:19:03,910 --> 01:19:01,600
remember as much as you enjoyed this

2066
01:19:05,669 --> 01:19:03,920
which is just the free first hour i hope

2067
01:19:08,470 --> 01:19:05,679
you'll become a plus member to hear the

2068
01:19:10,390 --> 01:19:08,480
full two hour interviews you also can

2069
01:19:12,950 --> 01:19:10,400
engage with other plus members in the

2070
01:19:14,550 --> 01:19:12,960
comments and the forums and you'll find

2071
01:19:16,390 --> 01:19:14,560
your answer to one of the most common

2072
01:19:18,070 --> 01:19:16,400
questions i get which is where can i

2073
01:19:19,990 --> 01:19:18,080
find those cover songs that you use at

2074
01:19:22,390 --> 01:19:20,000
the end of the show well they are free

2075
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:22,400
downloads for plus members too and

2076
01:19:26,470 --> 01:19:24,480
without plus members i can't hire the

2077
01:19:29,110 --> 01:19:26,480
occasional musician to bring these odd

2078
01:19:31,030 --> 01:19:29,120
cover song ideas to fruition plus

2079
01:19:33,030 --> 01:19:31,040
members are how i'm able to do what i do

2080
01:19:35,830 --> 01:19:33,040
without ads and without the big machine

2081
01:19:37,750 --> 01:19:35,840
being on my back we can fit so much more

2082
01:19:39,669 --> 01:19:37,760
into a two-hour interview and i do my

2083
01:19:40,550 --> 01:19:39,679
best to make it worth your time and

2084
01:19:42,709 --> 01:19:40,560
money

2085
01:19:45,030 --> 01:19:42,719
the conversation only gets deeper

2086
01:19:47,189 --> 01:19:45,040
weirder and more controversial in that

2087
01:19:48,470 --> 01:19:47,199
private hour how could it not the way

2088
01:19:50,669 --> 01:19:48,480
things are going

2089
01:19:52,950 --> 01:19:50,679
but the best way to sign up is at the

2090
01:19:55,590 --> 01:19:52,960
highersidechats.com where new first-time

2091
01:19:58,149 --> 01:19:55,600
subscribers always get a free seven-day

2092
01:20:00,229 --> 01:19:58,159
trial because i'm just that confident

2093
01:20:02,390 --> 01:20:00,239
there's no paypal on the website but if

2094
01:20:04,149 --> 01:20:02,400
you need to use paypal then sign up

2095
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:04,159
through patreon and you get all the same

2096
01:20:07,430 --> 01:20:05,360
episodes

2097
01:20:09,110 --> 01:20:07,440
our website is a credit or debit system

2098
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:09,120
but you can also scope out the other

2099
01:20:14,629 --> 01:20:12,000
options like a few various cryptos cash

2100
01:20:16,470 --> 01:20:14,639
or check mail to the po box and i'll

2101
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:16,480
even barter with most people if you have

2102
01:20:20,950 --> 01:20:18,239
your own business and produce something

2103
01:20:22,950 --> 01:20:20,960
nice that my wife or kid or taste buds

2104
01:20:24,950 --> 01:20:22,960
might like but the architects of

2105
01:20:26,629 --> 01:20:24,960
consensus reality have made it clear

2106
01:20:29,030 --> 01:20:26,639
that these themes and topics aren't

2107
01:20:31,590 --> 01:20:29,040
really welcome on the main stage and so

2108
01:20:33,590 --> 01:20:31,600
this is how we secure a little culture

2109
01:20:35,990 --> 01:20:33,600
corner for ourselves and i hope you'll

2110
01:20:37,030 --> 01:20:36,000
join plus because that is the only way

2111
01:20:39,590 --> 01:20:37,040
it works

2112
01:20:41,990 --> 01:20:39,600
besides you can cancel anytime right on

2113
01:20:44,070 --> 01:20:42,000
your profile page the most common

2114
01:20:46,550 --> 01:20:44,080
concern i hear is people just being

2115
01:20:48,950 --> 01:20:46,560
unsure if thc plus will work with their

2116
01:20:51,430 --> 01:20:48,960
podcast app and the answer is probably

2117
01:20:53,350 --> 01:20:51,440
yes but if not we have several

2118
01:20:55,510 --> 01:20:53,360
high-level app recommendations for

2119
01:20:57,270 --> 01:20:55,520
whatever phone you use and the website

2120
01:20:58,950 --> 01:20:57,280
is made for mobile too

2121
01:21:00,629 --> 01:20:58,960
we're trained to tip a waitress for

2122
01:21:02,470 --> 01:21:00,639
bringing us a sandwich but that tip

2123
01:21:05,030 --> 01:21:02,480
doesn't give you access to a second

2124
01:21:06,550 --> 01:21:05,040
sandwich really i'm not asking for any

2125
01:21:08,550 --> 01:21:06,560
more than that and i think i offer a

2126
01:21:10,870 --> 01:21:08,560
better service come get your second

2127
01:21:12,870 --> 01:21:10,880
serving of tasty conspiracy goodness in

2128
01:21:15,510 --> 01:21:12,880
exchange for that small token of your

2129
01:21:17,430 --> 01:21:15,520
appreciation beyond that let it also be

2130
01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:17,440
known that we have grown and survived as

2131
01:21:21,830 --> 01:21:19,760
long as we have by word of mouth

2132
01:21:23,910 --> 01:21:21,840
i don't care so much about social media

2133
01:21:27,030 --> 01:21:23,920
likes or follows but tell the right

2134
01:21:28,709 --> 01:21:27,040
people about thc and not just listeners

2135
01:21:30,790 --> 01:21:28,719
but the high level figures who are

2136
01:21:33,110 --> 01:21:30,800
better suited to sit down with me than

2137
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:33,120
most other hosts and if you can help me

2138
01:21:37,030 --> 01:21:35,040
with any of these things i can work to

2139
01:21:38,790 --> 01:21:37,040
bring you better shows which is just a

2140
01:21:40,830 --> 01:21:38,800
win-win for both of us

2141
01:21:43,110 --> 01:21:40,840
informative entertaining and

2142
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:43,120
action-packed it also never hurts to

2143
01:21:46,709 --> 01:21:44,800
thank a guest you liked if you have the

2144
01:21:48,229 --> 01:21:46,719
time either we want them to know people

2145
01:21:50,390 --> 01:21:48,239
are listening so they're willing to come

2146
01:21:52,629 --> 01:21:50,400
back down the road too thank you for